The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[kwajo]

Okay first off: Why not Uptown? Why aren't there developers wanting to put 3 12-story buildings on say, the Lantic Sugar site? It would add so much to our skyline!

Secondly: I am completely against developing Fort Dufferin if it will destroy the historic sites there. That site has been used for military installations for 200 years (if not longer), and remnants of the 19th century fort can still be seen today - so why destroy them?

Anyway, aside from those 2 points, this would be a fantastic project for the Lower West. Imagine pumping that much money and that many people into the area. Just wonderful for re-generating that part of the city. Not to mention that it would surely make development of Partridge Island as a tourist destination much more likely. The site also would have fantastic views, of not only the Bay, but of the whole city (although it's pretty foggy there a lot of the time). The mention of erosion is also a valid concern, as I recall that there is a lot of sandy ground there, and some of it is washing away down by the Breakwater. They'd probably have to reinforce the shoreline in order to get this project to work, but I'm sure they're on top of that.


On the whole, very exciting news, I just wonder if they have chosen the right site. And as a side note, I think it's funny that they are referring to the area as Fort Dufferin, instead of its other name, Negro Point. I can't imagine why they didn't want to use that name....

[kwajo]

Also, I think that Maine highway idea is marvelous for Saint John.

If the highway linked into St. Stephen, then a massive amount of new traffic would arrive into Atlantic Canada through Sourthern NB, and thus Saint John. Right now the Trans Canada bypasses us entirely, but if there was a motorroute that cut the travel time from Montreal in half, then we'd get a fantastic amount of traffic, as well as putting Montreal nearly as close to Saint John as Halifax is now, making SJ a wonderful halfway point.

[random11]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Okay first off: Why not Uptown? Why aren't there developers wanting to put 3 12-story buildings on say, the Lantic Sugar site? It would add so much to our skyline!

Secondly: I am completely against developing Fort Dufferin if it will destroy the historic sites there. That site has been used for military installations for 200 years (if not longer), and remnants of the 19th century fort can still be seen today - so why destroy them?

Anyway, aside from those 2 points, this would be a fantastic project for the Lower West. Imagine pumping that much money and that many people into the area. Just wonderful for re-generating that part of the city. Not to mention that it would surely make development of Partridge Island as a tourist destination much more likely. The site also would have fantastic views, of not only the Bay, but of the whole city (although it's pretty foggy there a lot of the time). The mention of erosion is also a valid concern, as I recall that there is a lot of sandy ground there, and some of it is washing away down by the Breakwater. They'd probably have to reinforce the shoreline in order to get this project to work, but I'm sure they're on top of that.


On the whole, very exciting news, I just wonder if they have chosen the right site. And as a side note, I think it's funny that they are referring to the area as Fort Dufferin, instead of its other name, Negro Point. I can't imagine why they didn't want to use that name....

I'm with kwajo on this one - Build uptown!

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Also, I think that Maine highway idea is marvelous for Saint John.

If the highway linked into St. Stephen, then a massive amount of new traffic would arrive into Atlantic Canada through Sourthern NB, and thus Saint John. Right now the Trans Canada bypasses us entirely, but if there was a motorroute that cut the travel time from Montreal in half, then we'd get a fantastic amount of traffic, as well as putting Montreal nearly as close to Saint John as Halifax is now, making SJ a wonderful halfway point.

You don't mean "hub" do you? Good. Don't want to make anyone angry!

[Seely32]

Originally Posted by random11

I'm with kwajo on this one - Build uptown!

I agree this should be built uptown.

But other than that this would do amazing things to the westside, I have family that have lived on the lower west side for almost 50 years and I think we all know how bad it is on ludlow. This project would go nicely in that area, and there is also a new development going down in that are a little further up the coast. The biggest problem on the west side is there are more nimbys there then most places in the city. I remember a year ago a developer was planing on building town homes on duke and gulford street, where an old school used to be. It was blocked by people who could not even see the house because it would lower the property value. I doubt a project like that will ever be built over there.

[SJTOKO]

Originally Posted by random11

I'm with kwajo on this one - Build uptown!

I'm not with Kwajo on this one, the West Side hasn't had any devlopment in decades and it's about time something get's done. Does anyone have any photographs of the land in question? I have no doubt Pugsley wharf will be developed quickly. I'm suprised nobody has suggested building the New Police HQ and courthouse on the Lantic site.. I think it would be cool to have a group of towers on the Westside... before you know it there will be restaruants coffee shops and much more...I hate how the Port refuses to give up Long Wharf, I actually would love to see the entire thing ripped out of there and filled in with water... It's AN EYESORE.... nobody wants to see that gigantic slab of concrete grace the waterfront.. DO SOMETHING WITH IT NOW>>>>>

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by SJTOKO

I'm not with Kwajo on this one, the West Side hasn't had any devlopment in decades and it's about time something get's done. Does anyone have any photographs of the land in question? I have no doubt Pugsley wharf will be developed quickly. I'm suprised nobody has suggested building the New Police HQ and courthouse on the Lantic site.. I think it would be cool to have a group of towers on the Westside... before you know it there will be restaruants coffee shops and much more...I hate how the Port refuses to give up Long Wharf, I actually would love to see the entire thing ripped out of there and filled in with water... It's AN EYESORE.... nobody wants to see that gigantic slab of concrete grace the waterfront.. DO SOMETHING WITH IT NOW>>>>>

[Seely32]

Hella you beat me to it I was just going to put the rendering up

[Helladog]

Does anyone have any photographs of the land in question?

Corect me if I'm wrong...



An enlargement...

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by SJTOKO

I'm not with Kwajo on this one, the West Side hasn't had any devlopment in decades and it's about time something get's done. Does anyone have any photographs of the land in question? I have no doubt Pugsley wharf will be developed quickly. I'm suprised nobody has suggested building the New Police HQ and courthouse on the Lantic site.. I think it would be cool to have a group of towers on the Westside... before you know it there will be restaruants coffee shops and much more...I hate how the Port refuses to give up Long Wharf, I actually would love to see the entire thing ripped out of there and filled in with water... It's AN EYESORE.... nobody wants to see that gigantic slab of concrete grace the waterfront.. DO SOMETHING WITH IT NOW>>>>>

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of development on the West Side, I was just asking a rhetorical question about why we aren't seeing big proposals like this for the Uptown core.

And I did have photos of Fort Dufferin somewhere on my computer at one point, I'll see if I can find them.

[Seely32]

i could of swore at one point last year they got rid of the bunkers that remained dow there. If you look at the google map thank you hella there is a new residential development about a half mile down the road to the left, it could really highlight that area as a place to live in saint john.

I would rather there be development on the west side then the east side. Maybe I am just slighted But I think these look nicer than anything Rocca has put together and offered on that side of town. I just hope if it goes through that it will put a fastforward on being able to tour partridge island on a regular basis.

[kwajo]

I found a few of my aerial obliques of the site (some cropped, some not) for those interested. The second photo in particular shows a great angle on the exact area of the proposed development:

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Corect me if I'm wrong...



An enlargement...

Perhaps we can get Erick to put these renderings on the development page

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by michael_d40

Perhaps we can get Erick to put these renderings on the development page

Some updates have been made on the projects page.

[Helladog]

In a few years, that'll be a prime location to view the new refinery...

Saint John's other skyline...

[random11]

In a few years, that'll be a prime location to view the new refinery...

haha.Yup

[kwajo]

In a few years, that'll be a prime location to view the new refinery...

Or to watch the houses fall of the cliffs at Red Head ...

[Seely32]

Developer Troy Northrup with an artist’s drawing of how the new Montana's Cookhouse Saloon will look when completed on Depot Drive



Dave MacLean
Telegraph-Journal
Published Tuesday November 13th, 2007
Appeared on page C1
SAINT JOHN - The Wild West will meet the booming East Side when Montana's Cookhouse Saloon brings its popular restaurant chain to Saint John early next year.

East Point Shopping developer Troy Northrup confirmed Montana's is the latest addition to his burgeoning retail development, which already includes a number of clothing retailers, a hotel, coffee shop and hardware retailer.

"We're very excited," Northrup said. "I think it's going to add a lot to the atmosphere of East Point. It's one more piece to the bigger puzzle and it certainly adds an entertainment selection along with the hotel (Hampton Inn & Suites), which is going to open at the end of November. It's all part of building a destination that is a full-service centre."

The restaurant is currently under construction on Depot Drive, across from the Home Depot and the Starbucks outlet that is also under construction and scheduled to be open before Christmas.

Northrup said the restaurant will help add to the East Point experience and will help attract customers for the hotel and for the retail shops.

"Building a successful centre and creating that unique atmosphere is not any one piece," he said. "It's the sum of all the pieces put together that make up the total experience and this is just one more piece."

It will be a 6,000-square-foot restaurant with seating for 50 on the patio, 50 in the bar and 141 in the dining room. Northrup said the patio will overlook the East Side and will include side walls that will enable diners to weather the elements earlier in the year and later into the fall. Northrup expects Montana's will be open in late January or early February.

Saint John MP Paul Zed says it's more great news for the city and he praised Northrup for his work on the development and his recruitment efforts toward landing major tenants.

"Single-handedly, Troy Northrup has done more for tourism, for retail development and economic development than any other economic initiative in the last 10 years," said Zed. "Saint John is becoming a retail destination, and this announcement adds yet another in a large line of premium, high-end attractions to our community. It's sending a positive signal about what's happening in Saint John.

"The thing that's really important for us to understand as a community is that we need to get the development right. That's one of the things Troy Northrup has sold to everybody in the community. He is committed to roads, to water, to infrastructure and storm management. He's doing it in a balanced way and the approach is right. It's clear that national and international retailers are recognizing the hard work that's gone into this project."

Mayor Norm McFarlane echoed Zed's comments. He said he has travelled with Northrup on occasion to help pitch the city as an exciting place to do business and he's impressed with the results thus far.

"It's becoming our premier location for shopping and it's improved the level of our shopping experience," said McFarlane.

"I've been with Troy when we visited Montana's and we actually ate at the Montana's in Toronto. Troy has worked very hard on it and he deserves a lot of credit for starting East Point and a lot of credit for each new business that moves there and Montana's is going to be a great restaurant for Saint John - very family-oriented. All the credit goes to Troy and the vision he has for the city."

[kwajo]

Progress: A creek runs through it
Environment Activist envisions a Marsh Creek where Saint Johners can canoe, watch birds and go skating

John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Tuesday November 13th, 2007
Appeared on page C1



SAINT JOHN - Marsh Creek is synonymous with the very worst of this city: a creek so clogged with raw sewage from Saint Johners' toilets that it makes people passing over it gag. It's a murky and unsafe environmental disaster that runs from the edge of the city's core and through the East Side, where it drains an area that is known for flooded basements and water-covered streets.

Now imagine, as Tim Vickers of the Atlantic Coastal Action Program does, a Marsh Creek that is synonymous with the very best of this city: a crystal-clear creek that attracts Saint Johners to walk its banks and impresses newcomers with wildlife and fish in the very heart of a city. In this version, Marsh Creek is wider now, and deeper. It's been built and maintained entirely by private companies, which are thrilled to contribute. And because the creek is deeper, flooding on the East Side is not the problem it once was.

The Marsh Creek Restoration Initiative is, Vickers hopes, a win-win-win solution because:

* It will improve the environment.

* It will make things easier on industry.

* It will reduce flooding.

In this project, the city's residential, economic and environmental progress all merge into one, and a creek runs through it.

"We believe we have the solution," said Vickers, the environmental group's executive director, "a phenomenal solution that almost anyone would look at and say, 'This is great.' "

Talk of a resurrected Marsh Creek, due to be clean in five to seven years as the city treats its sewage, is nothing new. People are already looking forward to when the creek's bottom will be visible again.

But ACAP's plans go well beyond a clean creek and a rudimentary walking path. In fact, the environment initiative could actually help energy hub projects and East Side shopping.

Currently, if a company undertakes a development it must compensate government for environmental damage, Vickers explained. At the city level, East Side development must be offset by payments for displaced water, which collects in large holes dug by the city. At the federal level, any fish habitat destroyed must be replaced by three times the fish habitat elsewhere. And, provincially, any wetlands destroyed must be replaced by six to 10 times more wetlands somewhere else.

With so much development happening in Saint John, five companies have approached ACAP and asked how to develop wetlands, low-lying areas where moisture is usually present.

That's where ACAP's solution comes in: when developers must compensate the government for development, they will do so in the Marsh Creek drainage basin. That 42-square-kilometre area includes five major tributaries and drains Glen Falls, Mystery Lake, Rockwood Park, the Courtenay Bay area and the East Side shopping district.

If, for instance, a box store or heavy industrial company wants to build and it will be damaging wetlands in the process, it will know that the Marsh Creek restoration initiative is the place to replace them.

Industry and business would have one less development headache to deal with, additional commercial development could take place on the East Side without the same level of flooding concerns and the city would get a tip-top environmental park.

"It meets companies' needs and at the same it meets the community's needs," Vickers said.

In a recent closed-door report to common council, city staff wrote that, "there are 'swamps' or 'local drainage pools' which are proposed for development. The concept that such areas are considered 'wetlands' is going to hinder efficient development."

Vickers says that, "all verbal judo aside," wetlands are wetlands and they're important both for drainage and for wildlife. Two types of people have been getting in touch with ACAP about development and the destruction of wetlands - the concerned businesses and frustrated East Side citizens.

Vickers has taken the group's idea to city and provincial departments, developers and some community groups, and he hopes to have the project in front of common council within the next two months. Vickers would not release the names of the five companies involved, although that would likely occur as the project unfolds. He doesn't have an estimate of the overall project's cost, but is confident it would be in the millions of dollars. If the proposal was in place today, work could start immediately in a number of areas, and the entire project would be completed within a decade.

The project will be ACAP's key goal for the next five years, and will focus initially on four main areas:

1) Courtenay Bay forebay: The area on the inland side of the Courtenay Bay causeway would connect directly to Harbour Passage and include a walkway jutting into the middle where people could watch for wildlife.

2) Marsh Creek straightaway: The section of Marsh Creek that runs behind Rothesay Avenue from roughly Staples to Strescon would include trails for walking, cycling and skiing.

3) Commerce Drive wetland: The area at the bottom of the hill behind McAllister Place would become a more expansive wetland.

4) Coldbrook flood plain: The city's flood catchment area in Glen Falls is now a "scar" just off Golden Grove Road that fills in with water occasionally. ACAP envisions it as a standing lake to be used for swimming immediately adjacent to more expanded wetlands.

The development would include a nature trail stretching from the Courtenay Bay area connecting to a path that would eventually take cyclists and hikers to McAllister Place on the East Side, crossing over four or five roads on the way. Canoeing, birdwatching, interpretive signs, and outdoor skating would all likely become parts of the development.

Vickers sees the project as Saint John's first try at sustainable development - the concept that any present-day development should not compromise future generations.

With global warming causing the world's waters to rise, and Saint John sinking about two millimetres every year, the number of wetlands in Saint John has to increase, no matter what, Vickers said.

Gone are the days when common council had to accept whatever terms developers laid before them, Vickers said.

"The opportunity here is for council to recognize that they're in the driver's seat."

Sounds good to me

[GUB]

It is surprising that amidst SJ's mini boom there is little to no mention of the Lantic Sugar site. Perhaps this is because the city has no idea what they envision for it ?? I beleive the site will eventually be a combo of res./ret./inst, or maybe the land will accomodate 1 very large function?
It's interesting there is not much talk about a site that has tremendous potential. Anybody heard/know anything?