Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by rebl

I'd just like to play devils advocate here. Why would servicing a high-school be important for BRT? The population going to a high-school is predominantly local.

People in high school and college use the bus far more frequently than other age groups. I used the bus for three years going to school, and the bus was literally 75% students.

Also, I'd actually argue the route they chose demonstrates the city has ambition since it lends itself to upgrading to free flowing traffic...which as stated in the report is not possible if they used the rail ROW.

Ambition? The route takes longer than the one proposed to run straight through the rail line ROW, and services far more people. Have you seen how Pembina has been built up with apartments and condos in the last decade? The route the chose is on the outskirts of the Beaumont suburb, where the majority of residents use cars, bordering an industrial area, where nearly everyone uses vehicles.

Pembina is not the high density area people make it out to be.

The density of Pembina Highway is far greater than any road in south Winnipeg.

But there are a ton of opportunities along the route they chose to increase density dramatically.

Hurrah for big box stores, and strip malls!

I would judge the city on how that goes since that is entirely up I the air. But you can't tell me the potential isn't there.

Even if they put in all apartment buildings on the Parker Lands, it services far fewer people than the rail line ROW.

Even if it doesn't...it serves a huge industrial district where I can actually see people taking the BRT from other parts of the city to work.

lol....very few people in Industrial areas use the bus.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by rebl

I'd just like to play devils advocate here. Why would servicing a high-school be important for BRT? The population going to a high-school is predominantly local.

People in high school and college use the bus far more frequently than other age groups. I used the bus for three years going to school, and the bus was literally 75% students.

Also, I'd actually argue the route they chose demonstrates the city has ambition since it lends itself to upgrading to free flowing traffic...which as stated in the report is not possible if they used the rail ROW.

Ambition? The route takes longer than the one proposed to run straight through the rail line ROW, and services far more people. Have you seen how Pembina has been built up with apartments and condos in the last decade? The route the chose is on the outskirts of the Beaumont suburb, where the majority of residents use cars, bordering an industrial area, where nearly everyone uses vehicles.

Pembina is not the high density area people make it out to be.

The densification of Pembina Hughway is far greater than any road in south Winnipeg.

But there are a ton of opportunities along the route they chose to increase density dramatically.

Hurrah for big box stores, and strip malls!

I would judge the city on how that goes since that is entirely up I the air. But you can't tell me the potential isn't there.

Even iof they put in all apartment buildings on the parker Lands, it services far fewer people than the rail line ROW.

Even if it doesn't...it serves a huge industrial district where I can actually see people taking the BRT from other parts of the city to work.

lol....very few people in Industrial areas use the bus.

[borkborkbork]

The "nobody in industrial areas takes transit" just isn't true anymore.

At Seel and Clarence station, you often see people getting on who are obviously coming off a shift at Buhler Versatile or Gendis or other light industrial and warehousing jobs in the area.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

At Seel and Clarence station, you often see people getting on who are obviously coming off a shift at Buhler Versatile or Gendis or other light industrial and warehousing jobs in the area.

...and that is enough to offset building it down a relatively high density area within 50m of Pembina? What about all the transit riders living on the east side of Pembina; I'm not going to complain about the dog leg too much from now on, since there is no use crying over spilled milk, however I pray the city does not mess up the next BRT line.

Once the powers that be start to curtail developers from continuing to build subdivisions and business along or outside the Perimeter (new industry, in particular, seems to be headed outside of the city limits), and encourage densification of existing neighbourhoods, the automobile will remain king. In fairness, this problem is not unique to Winnipeg. Miles south of Edmonton, they built one of the largest industrial areas, an international airport, a 25,000 person satellite community, etc., and all of this is virtually impossible to travel to without a car, or spending a fortune on cab fare.

[rebl]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

People in high school and college use the bus far more frequently than other age groups. I used the bus for three years going to school, and the bus was literally 75% students.

I never mentioned anything about college...are you saying people on Pembina attend college more than anywhere else? The point I am making about high school is those schools are already served by local connector routes. Nobody (virtually) is attending Vincent Massey from a location served by a BRT route meant to shuttle people across long distances. That's not what it is for.

Ambition? The route takes longer than the one proposed to run straight through the rail line ROW, and services far more people. Have you seen how Pembina has been built up with apartments and condos in the last decade? The route the chose is on the outskirts of the Beaumont suburb, where the majority of residents use cars, bordering an industrial area, where nearly everyone uses vehicles.

Maybe the point here is to have vision, not ambition. In theory, this (short) dog led adds more adjacent real-estate that could in theory boost riders hip immensely. If the ambition can match that vision I'd say it's sensible.

The densification of Pembina Hughway is far greater than any road in south Winnipeg.

Even iof they put in all apartment buildings on the parker Lands, it services far fewer people than the rail line ROW.



lol....very few people in Industrial areas use the bus.

You make some pretty strong generalizations that aren't verified. The Parker Lands along with a couple other locations just west of Seel and Clarence Station could dwarf the Pembina developments you speak of, especially with the HAF continues.

People working these factories absolutely take the bus. Many of them can't afford a car.

I'm not aware of ANY big box stores along the route they went ahead with but I am not from the area so you may be right....though Google maps shows none.

On top of this I still thinking going this route is better because it enables us to upgrade to free flowing whereas the other route would need to moved in order to accommodate that anyways.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by rebl

I never mentioned anything about college...are you saying people on Pembina attend college more than anywhere else?

You seem to be getting unusually defensive for some strange reason, or perhaps incorrectly reading between the lines, and assuming something that I never said.

Originally Posted by rebl

The point I am making about high school is those schools are already served by local connector routes. Nobody (virtually) is attending Vincent Massey from a location served by a BRT route meant to shuttle people across long distances. That's not what it is for.

This is incorrect. There are probably around 100+ students that attend Vincent Massey from a distance such as Fort Richmond/Waverley heights/Richmond West. Students can choose a high school further away from the closest one for a variety of reasons. Perhaps they ahve more friends at the school, and their folks moved south, or they may choose Massey since it has a better french immersion program, or other reasons than FRC. Considering there are over 1300 students at VMC, the students that commute from a considerable distance make up less than 10% of the student body (or at least that would be my bests guess).

At any rate, I should know since I grew up in the area.

Maybe the point here is to have vision, not ambition. In theory, this (short) dog led adds more adjacent real-estate that could in theory boost riders hip immensely. If the ambition can match that vision I'd say it's sensible.

It's been a decade since Phase 2 of the BRT was chosen, and absolutely nothing has been built on the Parker Lands. If the City was hoping for "ambition" they sure dropped the ball on this project. Here's an idea...why not look at Calgary and Edmonton, which have some of the highest ridership on their rapid transit systems in North America (I believe Calgary is #1 for all LRT systems), and emulate what those cities have done.

The densification of Pembina Hughway is far greater than any road in south Winnipeg.

You make some pretty strong generalizations that aren't verified. The Parker Lands along with a couple other locations just west of Seel and Clarence Station could dwarf the Pembina developments you speak of, especially with the HAF continues.

It's not generalisations. it's called reality. Once again, in 10 years, nothing has been constructed on the Parker Lands, and unless I am mistaken, there are no plans in the near future to build a slew of condo/apartment complexes on that piece of land, similar to what is planned at the old Southwood Golf Course.

People working these factories absolutely take the bus. Many of them can't afford a car.

The vast majority of the people who work in the Fort Garry Industrial Area take their vehicles to work. It's like that in pretty much every Industrial area in Winnipeg.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

lol....very few people in Industrial areas use the bus.

Actually, a very large number of people that work in Fort Garry Industrial Park use the bus, many of them within a short walk from Seel, Clarence and Chevrier Stations.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

Actually, a very large number of people that work in Fort Garry Industrial Park use the bus, many of them within a short walk from Seel, Clarence and Chevrier Stations.

I am talking about the entire Industrial area. I can see more employees of manufacturing plants within 150m using the bus. As a general rule though, the number of people using the bus that work in industrial areas is quite low.

[WinCitySparky]

“General rule” like where are you getting these numbers from

[rebl]

I'm done here.

You are either trolling or in complete la-la land.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by rebl

I'm done here.

You are either trolling or in complete la-la land.

You obviously have a very low tolerance for opposing viewpoints.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

“General rule” like where are you getting these numbers from

Some of us have lived or worked in multiple Canadian cities with rapid transit systems. We could really learn from these cities. I feel as though I am being attacked by the Sam Katz mafia.

[WinCitySparky]

Anecdotes don’t mean much if you’re looking to make a properly weighted point, is all I’m saying. I support transit expansion at any rate and would prefer not to be lumped in with the lowly likes of Sam Katz thanks very much.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

Anecdotes don’t mean much if you’re looking to make a properly weighted point, is all I’m saying. I support transit expansion at any rate and would prefer not to be lumped in with the lowly likes of Sam Katz thanks very much.

My apologies. I got upset, and used that snake oil salesman. I will refrain from mentioning his name again.

[rebl]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

You obviously have a very low tolerance for opposing viewpoints.

You didn't even properly respond to my original post and only made strawman arguments. The fact that you chose to keep poking me after I said I'm done, at the very least suggests you are just hear to get a rise out of me.

So much for a healthy dialogue!

[BlackDog204]

n/m

At any rate...what is next BRT line people in the city would like to see built, and where should it go?

I'd [ersonally love to see a line from downtown to the West Perimeter (probably through St.James-Assiniboia). Aside from building it on the median on Portage Avenue (which I have seen suggested), where could a line be built while disruption the least amount of homes/industry, and serve the greatest concentration of people?

Back around 2004 while Glen Murray was in mayor, I had observed a map of possible planned routes, one of them would have seen a BRT line being built along Wilkes, from the Jubilee Overpass down Wilkes to some point in Charleswood, before turning north to service more transit riders (it could have been near the proposed Charleswood Parkway extension).

I'm honestly unsure how they would run a BRT line from Downtown to the Polo Park area, unless they planned of designating either Ellice or Sargent the new BRT route, while closing two lanes to regular traffic, making it essentially one lane each way. Once it hits Empress or St.James, do the same thing southbound to Silver Avenue, and run it where they had made a corridor for a future expansion of Silver Avenue, which would take the route south of the Murray Park industrial area. From that point, take the route north to run beside Saskatchewan Avenue (as the city is planning on costructing residential areas up to PTH 190. Just a thought...

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I am talking about the entire Industrial area. I can see more employees of manufacturing plants within 150m using the bus. As a general rule though, the number of people using the bus that work in industrial areas is quite low.

Tell me you haven't taken a bus to an industrial are in rush hour without telling me you haven't taken a bus to an industrial area.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

industrial area.

I would like to see better transit to Industrial areas. Aside from the St.James Industrial area, transit is woefully inadequate to most industrial areas in the city. Murray Park, For Garry, St Boniface, Inkster, and Tuxedo have less than ideal service.

I honestly think people commuting to work should get free fare. It would encourage more people to use the transit system.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

The "nobody in industrial areas takes transit" just isn't true anymore.

It never was true.

So many workers use transit in just about every industrial park. My mom and numerous other workers did in St. Boniface Industrial Park. I had coworkers when I worked a summer at MacDon in 2008 taking the bus at Murray Industrial Park.

Folks around Chevrier and Clarence take the nearby transit buses and RT route at Seel Station. Clearly, there is demand.