LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

Everyone keeps quoting 'tax dollars' but the NCC made it abundantly clear that the developments are fully funded privately. As for the land cost/value, I'm not clear about it, but if the developer wants a car museum, they build it themselves. None of it is a question of 'tax dollars'.

NCC says it isn't using its money. Both teams have made it clear they're going after city brownfields money (to the tune of $170 million). Devcore's first phase: school, YMCA, etc is mostly tax funded things. Devcore doesn't have any attractions in its first phase but whenever it gets around to those it will probably look for public money. Sens probably won't ask for money for the main arena, but probably the sensplex/abilities centre will require public funds as would that Canada House thing.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

My biggest worry with the Devcore bid is its longevity.

When Ontario Place was built, it was very popular at first. But then people's tastes changed and the attractions became less popular. The buildings there were very specialized so they couldn't be repurposed without tearing them down. So they had no choice but to close it and rebuild the whole thing.

By building mostly specialized attactions that can't be easily repurposed, the Devcore proposal is at serious risk of having the same fate as Ontario Place in 30-40 years.

By contrast the Rendezvous plan is a real urban neighborhood that can grow and change organically as our society changes.

I suppose the 20-year-old CTC doesn't have that much longevity either. Plus, it's not inconceivable to lose a team, it's happened before, and to fanatic markets like Winnipeg and Quebec City to boot.

The organic change you speak of in an urban environment isn't necessarily going to be positive. In fact, pretty well almost every neighbourhood in the inner city has gone through a decline and decay. I bet a community of similar vintage buildings won't be so attractive in 30 years. It is much easier to repurpose the attractions to whatever is trending in the future than condos that each have hundreds of owners.

[Richard Eade]

Again, the comments coming from a few people are quite interesting. It is almost as if they are based entirely on wild speculation and not much thought.

As pointed out, there is no new public money being spent on the DCDLS pavilions, attractions, condos, or arena. There is no new public money being spent on the RVL arena, Sensplex/Activity Centre, condos, hotel, or businesses. Yes, there will be money from the City in the form of deferred taxes (up to 50% of the allowed costs) so that the land can be decontaminated, but that is through an existing program that would be accessed regardless of who, or what is built on LeBreton Flats – just as the program has been used in numerous places around the city.

As also pointed out, the pavilions that would house the attractions of the DCDLS bid are not necessarily completely purpose-built without any hope of being converted to any other use. It is amazing what can be done with relatively open structures. Take, for instance, the Olympic Velodrome in Montreal. It was built to house a track for bicycle races. Now it houses the Montreal Biodome containing large areas of four distinct North American eco-systems; including animals. I am quite sure that the LeBreton builder will ensure that anything they build will be able to be repurposed. Since they are paying for the building, they won’t want to be stuck with an empty liability.

We have absolutely no information on how the land rights is going to be transferred to the winning consortium, but it will likely be the same for either group – regardless as to which bid wins. If it is a $1 for 100 years, then you would need to complain about that for either group. If it is a market-value sale, then either group will have to recoup the costs.

And one that really made me laugh:

“ If the point of the Devcore bid is to make Lebreton a more touristy destination (a noble and worthy endeavour), do people think this car museum would still be a draw for people from the GTA when the Canadian Automotive Museum already exists in Oakville?”

Yes, I think that car people who have visited the 90-odd cars at the Canadian Automotive Museum (CAM) will still be interested in visiting a museum housing the 500+ Demers cars and the automobiles of the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology. The not-for-profit CAM, which relies only on donations to acquire cars, is not really in the same league as a three-story complex that will have international support. Comparing a large, juicy, Courtland to a crabapple probably isn’t really a fair comparison.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Again, the comments coming from a few people are quite interesting. It is almost as if they are based entirely on wild speculation and not much thought.

I half gave up on this thread a long time ago. some proponents simply can't accept one proposal isn't perfect and are bent on completely trashing the other.

They're both great proposals, each have their strong points. We are super lucky to have this development interest.

And, if anything, at least the comment trashing is based on pure passion. Its a great plot of land in a strategic location of our city. Its development will hopefully add a whole new elemant to urban life in Ottawa.

[rocketphish]

No surprises here:

Downtown arena would bring Senators closer to 520,000 people: report

Andrew Duffy, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: February 11, 2016 | Last Updated: February 11, 2016 12:42 PM EST

A consultant’s report prepared for the Ottawa Senators shows that the team currently draws almost 90 per cent of its fans from neighbourhoods west of the Rideau River.

The report, by Abacus Data, concludes that a downtown arena would drive visitor traffic to a redeveloped LeBreton Flats while making Senators hockey games more attractive to people living in South Ottawa, Barrhaven, Orléans, Gloucester and Gatineau.

A downtown location would mean an additional 520,000 people in the National Capital Region are within 15 kilometres of the arena.

The Senators Sports and Entertainment Groups sold about 1.1 million tickets to hockey games, concerts and special events last year, but there was “a significant geographic imbalance in sales figures” based on proximity to the Canadian Tire Centre, the report found

In a survey, nearly 25 per cent of people who don’t attend Senators games cited the arena location as a disincentive.

A downtown rink would offer “a major opportunity,” the report said, to make games more convenient and draw more fans from the east and south ends of Ottawa, and Gatineau.

Obtained by the Citizen, the report analysed public opinion surveys, market research data and financial information from the Senators Sports and Entertainment Group to arrive at its findings.

It was prepared in November as the Senators — one of two principals in the RendezVous LeBreton Group — finalized their development proposal for LeBreton Flats, the largest parcel of empty land in downtown Ottawa.

The Abacus report offered club executives some hard numbers to support their pursuit of the National Capital Commission site. The RendezVous group has put forward a $3.5 billion redevelopment plan with an NHL rink and event centre as its centerpiece.

The Canadian Tire Centre is 20-years-old — late middle-age for an NHL arena. The club spends more than $3 million a year to maintain and improve the building, but it will require expensive repairs in the next decade, including a new roof, window and doors.

The LeBreton project offers the club a golden opportunity to avoid some heavy repair costs while also fixing a longstanding problem: location.

The current site was chosen by team founder Bruce Firestone, whose 1990 bid for an NHL team was predicated on an arena being built as part of a massive development project in Kanata. But the location of the rink — more than 20 kilometres from downtown Ottawa on a highway crowded with commuters — has always been a thorn in the side of marketers and fans alike.

The Abacus report found that the Canadian Tire Centre’s location “depresses” attendance rates for the team.

The consultants examined the postal codes of those who bought Senators tickets and plotted them on a map of the National Capital Region. They found that 30 per cent of ticket buyers come from Kanata and Stittsville, even though the areas comprise 12 per cent of the region’s population. Those living in Ottawa West, with about 15 per cent of the population, make up 21 per cent of the team’s ticket-buying fan base.

By contrast, those in the east and south ends of the city, and those in Gatineau, are under represented. Although Orléans, Cumberland and Gloucester comprise 14 per cent of the region’s population, they fill about 11 per cent of the team’s seats. Gatineau residents, who represent 21 per cent of the population, make up only 4 per cent of ticket buyers.

A 2015 survey by the Nielsen group found that three-quarters of people in the region consider themselves casual or avid hockey fans. Half of them identified as Senators fans.

In the City of Ottawa, the support for the Senators is closer to 75 per cent, the report said, but the region’s overall average is brought down by the strong support for the Montreal Canadiens in Gatineau.

Moving the arena downtown would have a dramatic impact on the distance that most fans in the region would have to travel to attend an NHL game. Now, about 2,000 residents live with a kilometre of the Canadian Tire Centre, another 89,000 live within five kilometres, and 300,000 live within 15 kilometres.

A rink on LeBreton Flats would massively expand those living nearby to 15,000 residents within one kilometre, 320,000 people within five kilometres, and 820,000 within 15 kilometres.

The team believes those numbers would translate into ticket sales. A November 2015 Neilsen survey conducted for the club found that 50 per cent of respondents said they would be more likely to attend a Senators game at a downtown arena, while 57 per cent said they would be more likely to attend another live event.

The Abacus report concluded that a new downtown event centre would be “a major draw” for Senators fans, tourists and their money, and could drive a considerable increase in ticket sales.

Senators onwer Eugene Melnyk has said a downtown arena could add as much as $10 million more to the team’s payroll.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-people-report

[Richard Eade]

So, the report says that moving the arena to a more centralized location will mean that more people will be closer to the arena; definitely no surprise here. And yet, the surprise is that the RVL group has spec’ed an arena with only 18,000 seats, a drop from 19,153 (2014, before the 2015 drop to 18,694).

Simple logic would have said that moving an arena to an area with more potential seat-sales should have included an increase in the number of available seats. However, an area where there are more potential buyers should also mean that there are more ‘high-end’ buyers. By decreasing the number of seats, the supply is more limited; therefore, the ‘per seat’ price can be increased. Since the area should have a larger supply of people willing to spend more per ticket, the Senators’ organization should be able to increase their revenue; because there are fewer seats.

I did find it interesting that the study keeps adding in Gatineau as potential seat buyers, despite saying that the population of Gatineau overwhelmingly supports the Montreal Canadiens. I would think that the only time there are any large potential sales to the Gatineau crowd would be if the Habs were playing the Senators.

[jitterbug]

This analysis confirms another anecdotal observation I've made over the last 20 years.

Owing largely to the CTC's remote west-end location, many folks in Kanata and surrounding areas got the idea that the Senators were "their" team and the Palladium/CTC was "their" arena. Everything seemed geared toward an English-speaking, west-end audience, one in which folks from Gatineau or Orleans would feel somewhat foreign and uncomfortable. Not surprisingly, nearly all the Sens' original backers were indeed English, west-end lads.

Melnyk now has a golden opportunity to create a team and sports/entertainment facility for all residents of Ottawa-Gatineau and surrounding areas.

[acottawa]

The trend in recent years has been towards smaller sports venues in most sports (including hockey). Certainly raising prices is part of the equation, but so is improving the atmosphere (better in a sold out venue). Also, people expect wider seats and more leg room than they did years ago.


http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...mallstadiums19

[J.OT13]

They might also have considered the space occupied by the arena. A 19,000 to 21,000 seat arena would have taken significantly more room. They wanted to build an urban neighborhood with an arena at its centre, not an arena with an unban neighborhood surrounding it.

And 18,000 won't be out of place in the NHL:

Winnipeg's MTS: 15,294
Brooklyn's Barclay: 15,795
Jersey's Prudential: 17,625
Boston's TD Garden: 17,565
Madison Square Garden: 18,006

We'll be number 21 (number 20 if you consider our virtual tie with NYC).

And although Gatineau is still largely Habs Nation, I've seen a shift towards the Senators over the years. And with the team investing time and money in attracting fans from Gatineau (local players, rinks of dream, Sensplexes, including one that might house the Hull Olympics), we'll see even more of a shift in the coming years.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Plus, it's not inconceivable to lose a team, it's happened before, and to fanatic markets like Winnipeg and Quebec City to boot.

As an aside, the fanaticism of those markets you mention is unclear after reading stuff like this:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=2027161

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The trend in recent years has been towards smaller sports venues in most sports (including hockey). Certainly raising prices is part of the equation, but so is improving the atmosphere (better in a sold out venue). Also, people expect wider seats and more leg room than they did years ago.


http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...mallstadiums19

Exactly. And seating capacity is less important that actual attendance. Anyone who has been at Sens games recently knows that they are not selling 19,000 seats every night. 18,000 will be just fine.

As for writing off the Gatineau market because there are more Habs fans there - pure nonsense. As mentioned, the Habs fan population is aging, whereas many of the younger fans cheer for the Sens. And regardless, there are still many thousands of Sens fans in Gatineau, and many thousands of fans who are just hockey fans, and will buy tickets to NHL hockey regardless of whether their favourite team is playing.

[jitterbug]

Owing largely to the CTC's remote west-end location, many folks in Kanata and surrounding areas got the idea that the Senators were "their" team and the Palladium/CTC was "their" arena. Everything seemed geared toward an English-speaking, west-end audience, one in which folks from Gatineau or Orleans would feel somewhat foreign and uncomfortable. Even the suggestion that the CTC is inconvenient for many and might be moved to a more central and accessible location has been met with puzzlement and occasional hostility.

Melnyk now has a golden opportunity to create a team and sports/entertainment facility for all residents of Ottawa-Gatineau and surrounding areas.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by jitterbug

Everything seemed geared toward an English-speaking, west-end audience, one in which folks from Gatineau or Orleans would feel somewhat foreign and uncomfortable.

In 20 years of going to the rink, and as a season ticket holder (partial or full) for the entire period, and as someone who worked in Kanata for 10 years plus, I've never seen anything even remotely substantiating this claim. In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and call it a cop-out for the unwilling who don't want to make the trek.

The Senators put forward a bilingual product. To what benefit, I'm not so sure.

And I want the rink to move, in case someone thinks I'm a Kanata backer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

And although Gatineau is still largely Habs Nation, I've seen a shift towards the Senators over the years. And with the team investing time and money in attracting fans from Gatineau (local players, rinks of dream, Sensplexes, including one that might house the Hull Olympics), we'll see even more of a shift in the coming years.

There is hope for the Sens in Gatineau so they should not give up, but I am not really seeing that much evidence of a major generational shift so far. My kids are preteens and the vast majority of their friends and classmates are Habs fans. I'd say between 70-75%. This pretty much mirrors the percentage of Habs fans among adults IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

In 20 years of going to the rink, and as a season ticket holder (partial or full) for the entire period, and as someone who worked in Kanata for 10 years plus, I've never seen anything even remotely substantiating this claim. In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and call it a cop-out for the unwilling who don't want to make the trek.

The Senators put forward a bilingual product. To what benefit, I'm not so sure.

.

A bilingual product to a decent degree. House announcements and messages and such are very bilingual, as is signage, tickets, etc.

One thing I do notice though is that almost no one in the arena staff seems to speak French: ticket takers, concessions, etc.

Even when I've been talking to someone in my party in French, or with kids who obviously did not speak English, no one has ever switched to French at the CTC. Ever. Most would switch to French if they were bilingual so one can assume hiring bilingual staff is not a priority for them.

I've been to a few francophone-specific events there and even then there wasn't any service in French from Corel Centre, SBP, CTC staff. Which was kinda weird because everyone in the arena was speaking in French except for the staff who all spoke English only (or so it seemed), and in more than a few cases I saw fellow patrons (included myself) had to translate for them.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A bilingual product to a decent degree. House announcements and messages and such are very bilingual, as is signage, tickets, etc.

One thing I do notice though is that almost no one in the arena staff seems to speak French: ticket takers, concessions, etc.

It's Kanata, the local workforce with minimum wages that are paid would not make it overly attractive for a long commute for a francophone kid from centretown, gloucester or orleans! (not saying that no francophones exist in Kanata)... when I go to an Olympiques game or the Costco in Gatineau I don't expect service in english.

[lrt's friend]

The reality is that Ottawa is overwhelmingly Anglophone and Anglophones do work somewhere. And that is mostly in the private sector on the Ottawa side. The minority of the overall population that are truly functionally bilingual are largely absorbed in the federal public service and related government activities and relatively few are available elsewhere.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

It's Kanata, the local workforce with minimum wages that are paid would not make it overly attractive for a long commute for a francophone kid from centretown, gloucester or orleans! (not saying that no francophones exist in Kanata)... when I go to an Olympiques game or the Costco in Gatineau I don't expect service in english.

I wasn't complaining. Just responding to the assertion that the service offering by the Sens and CTC is bilingual.

BTW almost everyone can serve you in English at Bob Guertin and Costco in Gatineau. And any sporting event in Montreal too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The reality is that Ottawa is overwhelmingly Anglophone and Anglophones do work somewhere. And that is mostly in the private sector on the Ottawa side. The minority of the overall population that are truly functionally bilingual are largely absorbed in the federal public service and related government activities and relatively few are available elsewhere.

I suppose but at CTC a lot of the staff are pimple-faced teens or young adults far too young to have landed jobs in the federal public service yet.

I thought that half of them or more were in French immersion these days in Ottawa?

Not that I care that much but it's still surprising that NONE of them (in my experience) speak French.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wasn't complaining. Just responding to the assertion that the service offering by the Sens and CTC is bilingual.

Except that I never said anything about the CTC. I said the Senators, i.e. the game day product and other things like advertising, web sites, twitter, etc. What happens at other events at the CTC (concerts, etc.) is something I haven't paid much attention to.

Concessions at the CTC are operated by a wide variety of third-party enterprises. Pizza Pizza, Tim Hortons, Molson Coors, Aramark, Farm Boy, etc.

Anyway, sounds like a typical case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Bilingual "to a decent degree" sounds like "not good enough" ... like ordering 7-Up on Air Canada not good enough.