PHILADELPHIA | FMC Tower @ Cira Centre South | 736 FT | 49 FLOORS

[mmikeyphilly]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

How 'bout a 10-foot statue of the Phillie Phanatic?




It's the next best thing if we can't have a ballpark right across the street.


Okay, okay, really, I apologize. I promise that's the last one.

You know, I just wonder how Brandywine got the approval for those 2 extra floors without getting the nod from the woman who is affected by the "wind"?
You know who I'm talking about....you know, the one that probably now hates it because of the shadows...you know..you know who I mean.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mmikeyphilly

You know, I just wonder how Brandywine got the approval for those 2 extra floors without getting the nod from the woman who is affected by the "wind"?
You know who I'm talking about....you know, the one that probably now hates it because of the shadows...you know..you know who I mean.

I mean, the shadows and increased wind created from this building will ALMOST DEFINITELY affect her building at 19th and Chestnut

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I mean, the shadows and increased wind created from this building will ALMOST DEFINITELY affect her building at 19th and Chestnut

If you keep giving her these ideas, she may just decide to lead a march of her neighbors across the bridge to disrupt the groundbreaking tomorrow.

[miesian]

I heard a rumor that at the groundbreaking summers is going to emerge from a giant cake dressed like Rocky.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by miesian

I heard a rumor that at the groundbreaking summers is going to emerge from a giant cake dressed like Rocky.

Close... that's at the groundbreaking of CITC, not FMC.

Haha

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Close... that's at the groundbreaking of CITC, not FMC.

Haha

No, don't get confused now. It's planned for the dedication of Evo, when you'll proudly run all the way up the stairs to the rooftop swimming pool and do one of these:




Really looking forward to that.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

No, don't get confused now. It's planned for the dedication of Evo, when you'll proudly run all the way up the stairs to the rooftop swimming pool and do one of these:

Really looking forward to that.

Bahahaha.

[mmikeyphilly]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

If you keep giving her these ideas, she may just decide to lead a march of her neighbors across the bridge to disrupt the groundbreaking tomorrow.

LOL! Oh No! Well, that's okay..we'll have our shovels ready!

[mmikeyphilly]

Originally Posted by miesian

I heard a rumor that at the groundbreaking summers is going to emerge from a giant cake dressed like Rocky.

Indeed! All together chant now..Summer, Summer, Summer!

[Plokoon11]

I'm pretty sure we will all be there with shovels, digging out the foundation in record time, faster then the bulldozers and diggers. There have the foundation pilings in by next week with our pace.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by miesian

I heard a rumor that at the groundbreaking summers is going to emerge from a giant cake dressed like Rocky.

that made me laugh out loud - I would applaud - this building will truly make a huge impact

[JustSomeGuyWho]

Originally Posted by br323206

Actually, as a planner, I can tell you that stadiums are not usually a good investment. You can certainly find examples where they seem to be doing well, but if you drill down the economic impact is questionable. And in many more cases they are outright failures. Now, I'm not saying a downtown stadium can't be a positive--but your assertion that it has been done in "numerous" instances is untrue. There is a large body of literature that shows that.

For a local, and admittedly anecdotal, example just look at Chester. I know that the area around 30th Street is certainly not Chester, but it is a useful example of the rhetoric around stadiums as economic development falling short.

No doubt the value of building a park as an investment is questionable, but that usually revolves around the cost of building the ballpark in the first place and whether the economic impact justifies it. In this case, the city was already committed to building a park, the question was location. Does it have more value to the city in a sea of surface lots south of the city or in an underutilized area in the center of the city where an estimated 400K people live within a 1-mile radius.

Aside from the obvious examples, the two I am very familiar with are in Durham, NC and my current town of Indianapolis. The core of both of those cities have been transformed by the sports complexes built in their downtowns. Naptown is a derogatory term that is no longer applicable to Indianapolis.

[JustSomeGuyWho]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Yes, but it also was built there over a hundred years ago, and BU's campus and neighborhood are nothing like Penn's campus and neighborhood. Not to mention that the Mass Turnpike separates the two neighborhoods in Boston, so Fenway is not really "right next" to BU's campus. Penn Park, which we're talking about here, literally adjoins the rest of Penn's campus, and it just isn't comparable to Fenway's location relative to BU.

Try building a new major league ballpark adjoining the historic, leafy campuses of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown, or any other comparable top urban university campus. It's not going happen in those places, and it never was going to happen here. And it never was seriously considered here (except perhaps by Pennsgrant and his contacts in the Keating Construction Company ).

Also, the area you seem to be addressing is not the Penn Park location, but the area around 30th Street Station. Pennsgrant's beef is with there not being a ballpark where Penn Park is now located (south of Walnut Street).

Now you are just splitting hairs. There is a clear demarcation between that proposed site and the Penn campus. Franklin Field, the enormous hospital complex, the Palestra ... not to mention an elevated train platform. That is no less of a buffer than the mass turnpike. We are not talking about building a stadium across the street from the Wharton school. Certainly the hospital complex located right next to the center of campus with its thousands of employees and 24x7 year round activity could be considered much more of a disruption than a ballpark located several blocks away. Exactly how much disruption does Franklin Field and the Palestra cause to campus life?

Like I said, it really doesn't matter. The park is fine where it is and there is now new development there after decades of nothing. I would probably stop using the city leaders decisions to support your argument ... as if the city leaders have any credibility, lol. The decision came down to money more than anything else.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by JustSomeGuyWho

Now you are just splitting hairs. There is a clear demarcation between that proposed site and the Penn campus. Franklin Field, the enormous hospital complex, the Palestra ... not to mention an elevated train platform. That is no less of a buffer than the mass turnpike. We are not talking about building a stadium across the street from the Wharton school. Certainly the hospital complex located right next to the center of campus with its thousands of employees and 24x7 year round activity could be considered much more of a disruption than a ballpark located several blocks away. Exactly how much disruption does Franklin Field and the Palestra cause to campus life?

You clearly are unfamiliar with the area, and what is historically Penn's campus. Penn Park is CONTIGUOUS WITH what had been the eastern boundary of Penn's campus. That's why Penn bought and developed it. And Franklin Field, the Palestra, and the hospital complex are historically PART OF PENN'S CAMPUS, and have been so for more than a century (in the case of Franklin Field and HUP). There is nothing that separates the park from the rest of Penn's campus, as the train lines have been fully incorporated into the park:



Those are all Penn buildings to the west of (i.e., above in this photo) the park, and they have been very much an integral part of Penn's campus for decades and centuries. And it's a continuous, uninterrupted walk from that part of campus to the park. Penn Park's location relative to the former eastern boundary of Penn's campus is not in any way comparable to Fenway's location relative to BU, your assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.

And, as I pointed out previously, the "postal lands" that are now Penn Park weren't even available for purchase by Penn until 2007, more than THREE YEARS AFTER Citizen's Bank Park opened! Don't just accept Pennsgrant's history and view of this particular location--it's deeply flawed.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by JustSomeGuyWho

Like I said, it really doesn't matter. The park is fine where it is and there is now new development there after decades of nothing. I would probably stop using the city leaders decisions to support your argument ... as if the city leaders have any credibility, lol. The decision came down to money more than anything else.

It wasn't decades of nothing--it was the Postal Service's main processing facility for Philadelphia, and was very much in use until they moved that facility down to South Philly. And I'm not using the "city leaders decisions" to support my argument--because it wasn't their decision! It came down to Penn's being able to negotiate a purchase price with the US Postal Service in 2007, more than three years after Citizen's Bank Park opened, and even more years after the decision was made as to where to locate CB Park.

And NO ONE, save our friend Pennsgrant, thinks that CB Park should have been built on the "postal lands" (which weren't even available at the time, since the Postal Service was operating there for several more years!) instead of Penn Park. That is, no one with a clear vision of Philly and University City's true potential.

[Pennsgrant]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Don't just accept Pennsgrant's history and view of this particular location--it's deeply flawed.

The only aspect of this story that is flawed is seeing those tragically empty tennis courts and softball fields occupy such an awesome piece of real estate at 30th + Walnut.

Instead that real estate should have been the entertainment hub of the Philadlephia region.Not the Penn intramural hub . A Phillies ball park there would have put a turbo booster on Center City/University Citys economy. Could have also been used for outdoor concerts,Union, and the local college ball games as well, a mere 2 blocks from30th Street station. Within walking distance of 3000 retail establishments.


From what I understand getting the land for the new ballpark wasn't the problem .Penn was the problem.

But yeah lets all be happy that Quaker chubster Hilda bashes a HR with the moonlight bouncing off the Center City skyline instead of Ryan Howard doing it. But its all water under the bridge. I'm done talking about it.

[JustSomeGuyWho]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

You clearly are unfamiliar with the area, and what is historically Penn's campus. Penn Park is CONTIGUOUS WITH what had been the eastern boundary of Penn's campus. That's why Penn bought and developed it. And Franklin Field, the Palestra, and the hospital complex are historically PART OF PENN'S CAMPUS, and have been so for more than a century (in the case of Franklin Field and HUP). There is nothing that separates the park from the rest of Penn's campus, as the train lines have been fully incorporated into the park:



Those are all Penn buildings to the west of (i.e., above in this photo) the park, and they have been very much an integral part of Penn's campus for decades and centuries. And it's a continuous, uninterrupted walk from that part of campus to the park. Penn Park's location relative to the former eastern boundary of Penn's campus is not in any way comparable to Fenway's location relative to BU, your assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.

And, as I pointed out previously, the "postal lands" that are now Penn Park weren't even available for purchase by Penn until 2007, more than THREE YEARS AFTER Citizen's Bank Park opened! Don't just accept Pennsgrant's history and view of this particular location--it's deeply flawed.

I haven't even read Pennsgrant's history. Part of the discussion around the proposal included plans for moving the Postal operations to the airport and freeing up the postal lands. That was one of the hurdles they were trying to overcome. There were many articles written around those discussions.

Again, with the clear boundary between the real campus of Penn and the proposed site of the ballpark being the stadiums and the elevated train platform, I just don't see how a ballpark at that site would be much of a disruption or how it can't be compared to Boston's situation. It does not matter if Franklin Field, the hospital, etc. have been there historically (what does that even mean? They're used to it?), the assertion was that it would be too much of a disruption of life on campus and on that point we are just going to have to disagree.

Now what we are going to have ... after decades of little change in that area ... are towers with offices, retail and residential. I'd be willing to bet it isn't the end of it either. I could envision that entire area east of the train platform being built out in the years to come with that being no less of a disruption to campus life than an urban ballpark. That is fine and it comes with the territory of a large university integrated with one of the largest and densest cities in the country.

What would be really funny is if sometime in the not so distant future, Penn uses that land to build ... a stadium ... which would be natural given it's location right next to its other sports complexes.

[JustSomeGuyWho]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

You clearly are unfamiliar with the area, and what is historically Penn's campus. Penn Park is CONTIGUOUS WITH what had been the eastern boundary of Penn's campus. That's why Penn bought and developed it. And Franklin Field, the Palestra, and the hospital complex are historically PART OF PENN'S CAMPUS, and have been so for more than a century (in the case of Franklin Field and HUP). There is nothing that separates the park from the rest of Penn's campus, as the train lines have been fully incorporated into the park:



Those are all Penn buildings to the west of (i.e., above in this photo) the park, and they have been very much an integral part of Penn's campus for decades and centuries. And it's a continuous, uninterrupted walk from that part of campus to the park. Penn Park's location relative to the former eastern boundary of Penn's campus is not in any way comparable to Fenway's location relative to BU, your assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.

And, as I pointed out previously, the "postal lands" that are now Penn Park weren't even available for purchase by Penn until 2007, more than THREE YEARS AFTER Citizen's Bank Park opened! Don't just accept Pennsgrant's history and view of this particular location--it's deeply flawed.

btw, I am not unfamiliar with the area or its history ... I lived, worked and walked that area every single day for years. Heck, even my mom is a Penn grad ... it's in the family.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

The only aspect of this story that is flawed is seeing those tragically empty tennis courts and softball fields occupy such an awesome piece of real estate at 30th + Walnut.

Instead that real estate should have been the entertainment hub of the Philadlephia region.Not the Penn intramural hub . A Phillies ball park there would have put a turbo booster on Center City/University Citys economy. Could have also been used for outdoor concerts,Union, and the local college ball games as well, a mere 2 blocks from30th Street station. Within walking distance of 3000 retail establishments.


From what I understand getting the land for the new ballpark wasn't the problem .Penn was the problem.

But yeah lets all be happy that Quaker chubster Hilda bashes a HR with the moonlight bouncing off the Center City skyline instead of Ryan Howard doing it. But its all water under the bridge. I'm done talking about it.

Remember?

Don't think that just because two years have passed by and it took me all night last night to find it means that you get a pass on bringing your dead horse back up again.

[summersm343]

Guys. Baseball field wasn't built there. End of story. Deal with it. Let's get back on topic and talk about FMC.