[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by someone123

To me the Nova Centre feels a bit lazy on the part of those planning for a new convention centre. Obviously the developers are fine with it but it is a very marginal site that is only attractive because it is already prepared.

As I've said my worry with this is that we will get an equivocal answer, the project will be delayed indefinitely, and the two blocks will sit empty.

If it does move forward I think it will be positive for the downtown, even though it was not the best possible location and design. That is a pretty good outcome when you're talking about 3 levels of government plus the private partner and various other agencies.

If it goes forward, I am still holding out hope that it will be redesigned somewhat before the plans are finalized. It is a shame that it doesn't take advantage of the waterfront views as some have said, however, I'm kind of glad a big chunk of waterfront real estate is not going to be gobbled up by a large facility that sees intermittent use and will often be closed to the general public.

[someone123]

Vancouver's new convention centre is right on the waterfront. It is of course semi-private but still maintains a public path between the building and the water. It has a green roof not open to the public but one could imagine turning that into a bit public space with a bit of a redesign.

Unfortunately the design of the Nova Centre is hampered a bit by viewplanes. With the massive Argyle Street tower design they've also blocked off views from the roof - it's not hard to imagine a patio up there. Retail or restaurant spaces with patios along Argyle would also be desirable. Alternatively, they could create some kind of concourse area linking up with Grafton and the convention centre space that can open completely up on nice days.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

Vancouver's new convention centre is right on the waterfront. It is of course semi-private but still maintains a public path between the building and the water. It has a green roof not open to the public but one could imagine turning that into a bit public space with a bit of a redesign.

Unfortunately the design of the Nova Centre is hampered a bit by viewplanes. With the massive Argyle Street tower design they've also blocked off views from the roof - it's not hard to imagine a patio up there. Retail or restaurant spaces with patios along Argyle would also be desirable. Alternatively, they could create some kind of concourse area linking up with Grafton and the convention centre space that can open completely up on nice days.

I thought the green roof was to be open to the public?

[someone123]

Nope, it hasn't been open when I've seen it (though admittedly I haven't tried since I think last summer or so) and wikipedia seems to think it's not open to the public.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

Nope, it hasn't been open when I've seen it (though admittedly I haven't tried since I think last summer or so) and wikipedia seems to think it's not open to the public.

I meant the Nova Centre... I thought I read that they podium rooftops would be open to the public?

[miesh111]

I continue to hear that they are leaning towards a "no" on this project. Insiders as well as people close to several cabinet ministers feel that there will be no provinical funding. How they will word the answer, regardless of it is a financial decision, 'save the view' decision, or some other cockamemey excuse, the decision will be no.

If they do come forward with this no decision, it should become a high priorty of the members of this forum to organize and use every fiber of our being to take this government down. If their decisions are grounded in the short term financial picture, and not in the long term economic, cultural, and contribuition to the vibrancy of this city, province and region in Canada, they have no business being our government.

There is a difference between managing the short term, and leading for the future. Decision after decision from this government have been those of a manager, and not a leader. Mr. Dexter and all members of Government, the time has come for you to lead this province into the future, follow the vision of the people, and stop using a short term financial shortfall as an excuse for turning things down.

[halifaxboyns]

It’s time to OK centre

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Wed, Sep 8 - 7:11 AM

It’s been a long hot summer — arguably, one of the best stretches of fine warm weather many of us can remember in Nova Scotia.

But that was then. Now that most of us are back at work, the change in temperature seems to signify that it’s time to get down to business.

Before many of us went on summer vacation, there was one significant piece of unfinished business left on the public agenda — the fate of the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax.

The proposal to include a public-private partnership to build a more up-to-date and expanded convention facility as part of a $400-million private hotel, office and retail development in the heart of the downtown has been the subject of a great deal of scrutiny. The ongoing debate has many people just wishing a decision will be made. But it is much more complicated than that.

Rank presented its final proposal to the provincial government in July. If it gives the go-ahead, the province will seek the participation of the federal government in a three-way funding arrangement with Halifax Regional Municipality to pay for the project.

Rank would build the estimated $140-million facility to the government’s specifications, and the three governments would pay for it through a long-term lease arrangement expected to last 25 years.

Not that it makes any difference when it comes to relieving the public uncertainty, but Infrastructure Minister Bill Estabrooks indicated last week that he’s already made up his mind on the matter.

He says he’ll reveal the decision later this month. Since Estabrooks insists on keeping his personal decision a secret until he bats it back and forth with his staff and then has a meeting with Premier Darrell Dexter, one may assume that Estabrooks may just as secretly change his mind.

Sounding every inch like the former teacher that he is, Estabrooks has described the convention centre decision process as "a positive learning experience" for him.

It is difficult to imagine the government would reject the convention centre plan, considering the detrimental impact such a negative decision would have on the downtown business district and the harmful message it would send to the business community.

Business groups representing the downtown and the province have come out in support of the idea. Trade Centre Ltd., the government agency that currently manages the existing World Trade and Convention Centre down the street from the proposed new location, has commissioned studies to make the case in favour of building the new facility.

On the other hand, there is a group originally created to save the view of the harbour from Citadel Hill, which is prominent in fighting the convention centre idea. The group is suggesting, among other things, that the convention business in North America is dying and a new centre would fail to provide a noticeable increase in provincial tax revenue.

By preventing the construction of the new convention centre, the Coalition to Save the View also aims to reduce the height of the highrise structures planned for the former Herald lands.

However, the former Herald property is not affected by the long-established height restriction and high density structures will be built on the site whether a convention centre is part of the project or not.

Downtown Halifax needs a shot of energy, and a development of the size and scale of Rank’s proposal will generate a positive outcome that will have lasting effects on the city for many years to come.

( [email protected])

[halifaxboyns]

Just my two cents; I'm in favour of a convention centre - don't like this design. I think the convention space should be above grade and take advantage of the harbour views (where possible).

[spaustin]

Well Roger did get the one bit at the end completely wrong. With the Convention Centre, they can go taller than they otherwise could. The site was given special consideration in HRM By Design, but if the convention centre doesn't happen, the standard height limits apply.

[hfxtradesman]

Quote on quote. Joe (Rank) was told " Take your vacation now, because your going to have a busy Fall". Everybody can draw there own conclusions on what will happen. If plan "A" doesn't happen there is still two more options.Taken from a source on the inside.

[someone123]

This was to tradespeople who would be working on the project?

Doesn't this one need to go through the municipal approval process, meaning that it will take a minimum of a year or so to be approved, or possibly much more if people decide to appeal, which they almost certainly will? Presumably there is a mechanism for the province to push forward public projects but I am not sure if such an approach is commonly used.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

This was to tradespeople who would be working on the project?

Doesn't this one need to go through the municipal approval process, meaning that it will take a minimum of a year or so to be approved, or possibly much more if people decide to appeal, which they almost certainly will? Presumably there is a mechanism for the province to push forward public projects but I am not sure if such an approach is commonly used.

This statement is included in the Downtown Halifax Land use By-Law and Design Manual (which resulted from the HRM by Design process) on page 20 - (page 27 of 141 of the pdf file):

(source: http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf )

(15A) Notwithstanding any provision of this By-law except subsections (14) through (17) of section 8, a publically-sponsored convention centre together with retail, hotel, residential or office, and underground parking space, may be developed on the two blocks bounded by Argyle Street, Prince Street, Market Street and Sackville Street in accordance with the drawings attached as Appendix "B" to this By-law. For the purposes of this subsection, “publically-sponsored convention centre” means an establishment funded or otherwise financially supported by any or all levels of government which is used for the holding of conventions, seminars, workshops, trade shows, meetings or similar activities, and which may include dining and lodging facilities for the use of the participants as well as other compatible accessory facilities.

(15B) In addition to the requirements of subsection (15A), the requirements of subsection (6) of section 5 shall apply. The Development Officer shall refer the application for site plan approval to the Design Review Committee for their approval of the proposal's qualitative elements as set out in section 1.1 b. of the Design Manual.

To me, this sounds like a development agreement. It just needs to be approved by the Design Review Committee. If approved though then I think it could still be appealed (?), but maybe the process will be sped up for this project.

[sdm]

Downtown shuffle
The demand for downtown office space has collapsed, but the province is considering subsidizing construction of a huge new office tower.
by Tim Bousquet

Last week, infrastructure minister Bill Estabrooks told the Chronicle-Herald that he'll announce a decision about provincial funding for the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax later this month.

I'm guessing from the tenor of his public pronouncements so far that, despite a provincial budget shortfall that will soon loom to perhaps a half-billion dollars, Estabrooks will announce over $100 million in government financial support for the convention centre project. Such is the power of the unelected, but well-paid Trade Centre Limited lobby that manages and feeds off the unprofitable convention biz.

Regardless, we should hope that a real business case, as opposed to the sideshow house of mirrors that has been used to hype a new convention centre, will accompany Estabrooks' announcement.

Consider the issue of office space. The convention centre complex will consist of the publicly owned convention centre in the basement, then two privately owned towers above---one is a 500-room hotel, the other office space. How much office space will be in the complex? We aren't being told yet. But Joe Ramia, the private developer, told me earlier this year that he has "verbal commitments" for leasing 75 percent of the building. "These are big, international companies," he said. "We're talking 100-, 200-, 300,000 square feet each."

I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.

So how is it Ramia can throw up an office tower and have it leased out? Well, the only thing that makes sense is that the Trade Centre Limited offices---118,000 square feet---will move from its existing building over to the new building. That's reasonable, of course---you'd want the convention centre offices close to the convention centre. Otherwise, Ramia's "verbal commitments" likely amount to still more reshuffling; that is, he'll poach existing downtown offices into his shiny new building, courtesy of a taxpayer subsidy.

When TCL offices move into the new building, what happens to the existing TCL building? One rumour is that city offices in Duke Tower will be moved over to the TCL building, leaving Duke Tower pretty much completely empty. But the city only rents 50,000 square feet in Duke Tower, and the lease doesn't expire until 2021. So unless the lease is broken, or the new convention centre won't be completed for another decade, it still begs the question: what happens to the existing TCL building?

I put that question to Suzanne Fougere, who speaks for TCL. "It is too soon to know the specifics of future operations should a new facility proceed," she replies. Well, I'm sure Fougere's merely relating what she's been told by TCL execs, but how is it possible to assemble a business plan for the new convention centre without also figuring out what to do with the existing office tower?

If the future of the existing TCL building isn't incorporated into the business plan for a new convention centre, then we can simply laugh the proposal off the stage and move onto some substantial issue where we can have a productive and informed debate.

The point is that a new convention centre, being sold as the salvation of downtown Halifax, may actually pull the rug out from under the market, making the situation downtown even worse than it is now.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by sdm

Downtown shuffle
The demand for downtown office space has collapsed, but the province is considering subsidizing construction of a huge new office tower.
by Tim Bousquet

Last week, infrastructure minister Bill Estabrooks told the Chronicle-Herald that he'll announce a decision about provincial funding for the proposed convention centre in downtown Halifax later this month.

I'm guessing from the tenor of his public pronouncements so far that, despite a provincial budget shortfall that will soon loom to perhaps a half-billion dollars, Estabrooks will announce over $100 million in government financial support for the convention centre project. Such is the power of the unelected, but well-paid Trade Centre Limited lobby that manages and feeds off the unprofitable convention biz.

Regardless, we should hope that a real business case, as opposed to the sideshow house of mirrors that has been used to hype a new convention centre, will accompany Estabrooks' announcement.

Consider the issue of office space. The convention centre complex will consist of the publicly owned convention centre in the basement, then two privately owned towers above---one is a 500-room hotel, the other office space. How much office space will be in the complex? We aren't being told yet. But Joe Ramia, the private developer, told me earlier this year that he has "verbal commitments" for leasing 75 percent of the building. "These are big, international companies," he said. "We're talking 100-, 200-, 300,000 square feet each."

I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.

So how is it Ramia can throw up an office tower and have it leased out? Well, the only thing that makes sense is that the Trade Centre Limited offices---118,000 square feet---will move from its existing building over to the new building. That's reasonable, of course---you'd want the convention centre offices close to the convention centre. Otherwise, Ramia's "verbal commitments" likely amount to still more reshuffling; that is, he'll poach existing downtown offices into his shiny new building, courtesy of a taxpayer subsidy.

When TCL offices move into the new building, what happens to the existing TCL building? One rumour is that city offices in Duke Tower will be moved over to the TCL building, leaving Duke Tower pretty much completely empty. But the city only rents 50,000 square feet in Duke Tower, and the lease doesn't expire until 2021. So unless the lease is broken, or the new convention centre won't be completed for another decade, it still begs the question: what happens to the existing TCL building?

I put that question to Suzanne Fougere, who speaks for TCL. "It is too soon to know the specifics of future operations should a new facility proceed," she replies. Well, I'm sure Fougere's merely relating what she's been told by TCL execs, but how is it possible to assemble a business plan for the new convention centre without also figuring out what to do with the existing office tower?

If the future of the existing TCL building isn't incorporated into the business plan for a new convention centre, then we can simply laugh the proposal off the stage and move onto some substantial issue where we can have a productive and informed debate.

The point is that a new convention centre, being sold as the salvation of downtown Halifax, may actually pull the rug out from under the market, making the situation downtown even worse than it is now.

I think there is lack of truth in how this is being presented.

We have so much time for the federal money to come in... this article paints the shortfall inappropriately, as the total number isn't coming from the province as we are lead to believe by the writing.

Additionally, it doesn't suprise me that low quality office space is empty in Halifax... but the amount of residential being added downtown right now is supirising. It is doubtful that all of these new residents are going to work out in business parks...

If Joe is in fact brining in some international companies, then this information is not tied to the current situation. It is presented that companies coming in is surely an impossibility. Joe's last name is "Ramia"... I don't think it is rediculous to think that he could get a mix of Canadian and international expansions or relocations within the city to fill what isn't a massive tower.

Maybe Mr. McCrae isn't as skilled at pre-leasing and isn't talking to enough internationals. Halifax has got to be a logical expansion point for a number of companies that have rebouned from the recession in their own region.

Anyway, I can't stress enough how viable the development is if federal funding comes through.

Maybe some of Scotia Square floors on each tower should be converted to residential... the mall downstairs would come back to life.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Also, I thought everybody was aware that TCL's offices are moving into the Nova Centre and that HRM Council offices were moving into the old convention centre?

[someone123]

Bousquet's article is a little light on facts and heavy on extrapolation with a very negative bent, as usual.

First, it is a little dishonest to simply call this "government subsidized" office space. The government is paying for the convention centre component of the development.

Negative absorption is not good for the downtown but it is also not an established long-term pattern; this is something that has been happening for the last few months, and 10% vacancy right now is actually relatively low.

In some cities like Calgary construction is moving forward with vacancies in the 15-20% range. This is also normal in US cities, as is "poaching" - it is a good thing for companies to move around in the downtown, out of old buildings and into new ones. The older buildings gradually move downmarket (Duke Tower is 40 years old) and become available for other types of businesses. For example, another software company recently moved into one of the Scotia Square towers. This is the kind of business that could locate in the suburbs but might choose cheap space downtown. The idea that there has to be 0% vacancy and brand new companies pre-leasing buildings before there should be construction is a real stretch.

I am not surprised that the Roy Building switched to residential because there were about half a dozen office proposals that came right around the time of the economic downturn. Obviously those were not all going to be built since they represented 1 million+ square feet of new office space. I am also totally fine with the idea of more residential downtown.

I think overall there is a very negative attitude in Halifax toward new development. There is a pervasive idea that you need to have an absolutely perfect situation (pre-leased, no new traffic, everybody happen with views and so on) before anything should be done, and the result is less growth and less economic activity than other places. If you look at many, many developments in other cities they were not immediately perfect successes and many of them involved government subsidy. Years later, they have proven to be valuable assets and are profitable.

[fenwick16]

Rank Inc. is taking the risk by going ahead with this project in downtown Halifax. Will Tim Bousquet be happy once downtown Halifax is a deserted slum? Tim Bourquet is simply too anti-everything (in my opinion) and I find his stories to be misleading and depressing. I stopping reading The Coast several months ago.

The following comments immediately strike me as being non-credible:

I don't find that claim credible. Last week the downtown office vacancy rate went over 10 percent. There are empty spaces in most downtown towers. Ben McCrea has suspended work on the relatively small (100,000 square feet) Waterside Centre for lack of tenants---but when McCrea presented his case before Halifax council last year, he explicitly made claims similar to Ramia's ---that he had the building entirely rented, et cetera. Worst for the downtown real estate market, the future looks even more bleak: Emera is moving out of Duke Tower and over to its new waterfront headquarters, meaning another 125,000 square feet of empty space. Louis Reznick has changed his plans for the Roy Building rebuild, switching from the original office building to residential. The Empire Corporation has had approval to build a 600,000 square foot office building on Barrington Street since 1978; in 2008 the company announced work would soon begin on a building half that size, but those plans have gone the way of trillions of dollars in American mortgages.

How can he describe converting an eyesore on the Halifax waterfront to a sleek, modern, office building as a sign that "the future looks even more bleak". I understand that he is stating that 125,000 square feet is being vacated but in many cities having new construction is considered to be a sign of prosperity not doom and gloom.

To me and others, converting the Roy building to residential is a positive move for downtown Halifax. If Rank Inc. can't find enough tenants for the office tower component then why not convert the 14 storey office tower to an equivalent height 18 - 19 storey residential condo tower of equal design quality to The Trillium?

[worldlyhaligonian]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/striderv/4979191525/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The above link shows how rediculous heritage/stv folks are... I don't think we are losing any structures of value or views. Unless they love looking at the oil refiinery.

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with Someone123; the 8th Avenue office tower here in Calgary STILL has no space leased and should be finished in about a year (around the same time as the bow). The bow (from what I'm hearing) is 75% leased but will open up office space in their old building. Jamieson Place is starting to fill up slowly; but its happening - so I don't think it's bad that this get built and more office is added. If the space is cheap, more people will move offices downtown. There will never be a situation where HRM is 0% office vacancy - that would and will never happen.

I wasn't aware that the Roy building had converted to residential - but I think this is great news. An iconic building like that deserves a new life and I've been troubled by the fact so much of the proposals downtown have been office, because there aren't many spots for residential of high density left that aren't already in the system under an existing application or that could come available. When the developer for the Discovery Centre site started thinking residential I kept thinking, great and if the Roy building switched, you'd have two centrally located apartment blocks! Perfect! My only suggestion is that if the Roy does go residential - add balconies. I love my balcony and can't live without it.

As to Tim's view - if Roy goes residential and then so does the discovery centre - this could actually be a very positive thing for downtown. Trillium added about 90 new dwelling units to the Spring Garden Road area - based on the Peninsula's LUB - a 1 bedroom is typically 2 ppl/habitable room (what a weird way to calculate density); 2 bedroom is 3 ppl/hr and a 3 bedroom as much as 4ppl/hr. If the Roy Building and Discovery Centre add roughly the same number of units each (90 to 100; around 200 total); you could easily see in the range of 200 to as much as 500 people living there. More people for the businesses downtown - so how is that a bad thing? I don't get Tim's logic sometimes...

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

As to Tim's view - if Roy goes residential and then so does the discovery centre - this could actually be a very positive thing for downtown. Trillium added about 90 new dwelling units to the Spring Garden Road area - based on the Peninsula's LUB - a 1 bedroom is typically 2 ppl/habitable room (what a weird way to calculate density); 2 bedroom is 3 ppl/hr and a 3 bedroom as much as 4ppl/hr. If the Roy Building and Discovery Centre add roughly the same number of units each (90 to 100; around 200 total); you could easily see in the range of 200 to as much as 500 people living there. More people for the businesses downtown - so how is that a bad thing? I don't get Tim's logic sometimes...

lol, you've just entered the matrix.


just kidding, but you now understand how this stuff is being presented to the reader in halifax who isn't as enlightened as you.

Downtown residential is presented here as assumed to be negative... even though it is clearly vital for the revitalization of areas where readers of this stuff come from. This is where you know that they are against development and change in halifax. Its tied to the "sustainability" argument, that downtown can't support all of this development... even though its not the same situation as when past developments flooded the market with office space. People need to live downtown, and its part of the reason we've seen streets like Barrington die. Although many companies on Barrington were also victims of their own industries, revitalization will happen with renovated buildings and new businesses.

This article makes the assumption that housing isn't a continuously growing phenomenon in cities with non-Detriot situations. Well in Halifax, we are actually hurting our downtown because we are constantly building farther and farther away. Tim doesn't take into account that maybe if we built all this residential that the Nova Centre would be much more likely given the shift in where people will live and go to work.

Thus, the article was really underlying obstructism mystified in assumed thruths.