CHICAGO: Transit Developments

[Busy Bee]

Why not the entire loop then? Wouldn't that make sense?

[CTA Gray Line]

Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...mporary-relief

June 06, 2015

GREG HINZ ON POLITICS

You might call it the $570 million question, one that hundreds of thousands of commuters—not to mention Loop employers and Lakeview residents—would like answered.

The question: Is it worth having the Chicago Transit Authority spend that much to build a flyover bridge to separate the Red and Brown line tracks at the so-called Clark Junction, just south of Wrigley Field......

Read the Comments!

Title VI Civil Rights Non-Compliance Complaint announced, June CTA Board of Directors Meeting: https://youtu.be/get2wPjbJxg

[chicagopcclcar1]

Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line

Title VI Civil Rights Non-Compliance Complaint announced, June CTA Board of Directors Meeting: https://youtu.be/get2wPjbJxg <br /> ...d......"<br />

"The question: Is it worth having the Chicago Transit Authority spend that much to build a flyover bridge to separate the Red and Brown line tracks at the so-called Clark Junction, just south of Wrigley Field......"


In the discussion of flat junctions in use by the CTA Rail, only one flying junction is in service, the so-called "Grand Junction", 17th St. interlocking, used by the Green and Orange lines. The other day-to-day operations today are handled by flat junctions: at 59th St. on the south side; Paulina Jct. on the west side; Clark Tower and Howard on the north side; and two flat ones on the Loop "L"....Tower 18 and Tower 12. Two other flying junctions are only used for transfer, work trains, another non-revunue moves.

Referencing the photo, I think the lay-person doesn't take it into mind that more has to go on before a move can be made at Clark Tower. Some people say it's only 20, or 30 seconds for a train to travel the distance through Clark Tower. What they fail to account in their timing that it takes time to clear the first routing before setting up the next route. The Brown line train in the picture has to complete its move and clear, then the next move can be lined up. In the meantime, trains approaching have to limit their speeds, adding to their time. Often its THESE MINUTES that gets overlooked when the lay-person says it only took 20-30 second.

DH

[CTA Gray Line]

Originally Posted by chicagopcclcar1

"The question: Is it worth having the Chicago Transit Authority spend that much to build a flyover bridge to separate the Red and Brown line tracks at the so-called Clark Junction, just south of Wrigley Field......"


In the discussion of flat junctions in use by the CTA Rail, only one flying junction is in service, the so-called "Grand Junction", 17th St. interlocking, used by the Green and Orange lines. The other day-to-day operations today are handled by flat junctions: at 59th St. on the south side; Paulina Jct. on the west side; Clark Tower and Howard on the north side; and two flat ones on the Loop "L"....Tower 18 and Tower 12. Two other flying junctions are only used for transfer, work trains, another non-revunue moves.

Referencing the photo, I think the lay-person doesn't take it into mind that more has to go on before a move can be made at Clark Tower. Some people say it's only 20, or 30 seconds for a train to travel the distance through Clark Tower. What they fail to account in their timing that it takes time to clear the first routing before setting up the next route. The Brown line train in the picture has to complete its move and clear, then the next move can be lined up. In the meantime, trains approaching have to limit their speeds, adding to their time. Often its THESE MINUTES that gets overlooked when the lay-person says it only took 20-30 second.

DH

I am not a lay-person David, I drove C&NW trains for 3 years in the 70's until I was laid-off due to declining freight business; there are Interlockings all over any Class I Railroad just like the "L", and they take time to align/realign routes also, in the same way. And it also takes time to realign the ladder switches, and set the car retarders below an assembling yard hump before you release the next car, or group of cars down the hill -- so you see I do understand! CTA doesn't have any car retarders in their tracks, do they?

There is no point in discussing this with you, because we are both concrete solidified in our respective opinions; and will not change!

If the Title VI Complaint is successfully resolved, A new State "Transit Project Review Board" (in a PUBLIC Format -- with PUBLIC input) will Study, Rank, and Designate which Transit Agency submitted Major Capital Projects provide the MOST Benefits, for the LEAST Cost.

Is something wrong with that in your eyes? Seems to me to be the fairest thing I could possibly imagine (the Gray Line might flunk the test too, you know)

[CTA Gray Line]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...mn.html#page=1

Jon Hilkevitch

June 14th, 2015 5:06 pm

Dorval Carter Jr. didn't spend a lot of time worrying about keeping trains and buses running during the more than 30 years he worked in mass transit as a legal eagle, a gatekeeper of federal grants and a top policy adviser to the Obama administration's transportation czar.

But it's a new day. Monday marks four weeks that Carter has been on the job as president of the Chicago Transit Authority. Already, two emergencies have flared on his watch.....

[CTA Gray Line]

Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...mn.html#page=1

Jon Hilkevitch

June 14th, 2015 5:06 pm

Dorval Carter Jr. didn't spend a lot of time worrying about keeping trains and buses running during the more than 30 years he worked in mass transit as a legal eagle, a gatekeeper of federal grants and a top policy adviser to the Obama administration's transportation czar.

But it's a new day. Monday marks four weeks that Carter has been on the job as president of the Chicago Transit Authority. Already, two emergencies have flared on his watch.....

Read the Tea Leaves -- Hilkevitch mentions Loop Link, Blue Line, Red Line 95th, Wilson, and Red/Purple; NO reference to the Red Line Extension:

"Q: The CTA has numerous infrastructure improvement projects underway — Loop Link bus rapid transit, the Blue Line O'Hare branch renewal, Red Line 95th Street terminal expansion and reconstruction, Wilson station replacement, Red-Purple Modernization, among others".

[chicagopcclcar1]

Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line

I am not a lay-person David, I drove C&NW trains for 3 years in the 70's until I was laid-off due to declining freight business;

Who mentioned your name? Do you have to respond whenever? I know what you have said before about your CNW experience. I was pointing out for the persons not in the know, especially those clocking 20 and 30 seconds moving through Clark that it takes more time to set route, especially when your train is stopped due to a conflicting movement.

Originally Posted by CTA Gray Line

If the Title VI Complaint is successfully resolved, ......

If you've noticed this Skyscraper page Transit Developments used to be robust, now it is all but dead. No one participates anymore. One poster (guess who?) has over fifty percent of posting and almost no response.

So getting a response to your "Title VI Complaint" I go to another forum "CTA Tattler" where there's named "Jack"......Apparently the only conclusion from the pro flyover contingent here (especially urbaneddie) is that they deserve the money more than other parts of town.

I don't know if your suit is going anywhere, but I agree with your point about the need for a Transit Project Review Board, If nothing else, a prioritized list of projects would have a better chance of getting funded......

Aside that it has to be filed to count, the answer can be that they have spent as much on this as they have on the 130th extension, which is of course only consultant money. Both the Wilson station and the 95th bus terminal are each getting about $240 million, from about somewhere, and I don't think that black people of the Spokane type live around Wilson, but Afro-Americans do....

Also, don't forget that Rahm Emanuel personally rebuilt the Red Line Dan Ryan segment and as a result, won the runoff. That goes into the lawsuit calculus....

The last I remember, communities such as Roseland, West Pullman, and Altgeld Gardens lost their white populations maybe 40 years ago, so extending the Red Line to 130th isn't serving the white community. Chatham and Burnside are already served by the Red Line.....

And, I seem to remember that you played the Title VI card for the communities you mentioned 10 years ago, and it took you about 5 years to admit that it didn't work.....

The only thing I was trying to say in my post is that the people who claim they have a Title VI claim here can't prove discrimination, other than it probably will be white people who will be displaced by this project. They can't prove discrimination against blacks. Furthermore, any suit is undoubtedly not ripe in the legal sense.....

Finally, my understanding is that Metra does serve Lisle.

I like that phrase...." I seem to remember that you played the Title VI card for the communities you mentioned 10 years ago, and it took you about 5 years to admit that it didn't work."

DH

[orulz]

Originally Posted by chicagopcclcar1

If you've noticed this Skyscraper page Transit Developments used to be robust, now it is all but dead. No one participates anymore. One poster (guess who?) has over fifty percent of posting and almost no response.

I think this thread is dead because most of the Chicago enthusiasts now go straight to the Chicago Projects & Construction forum, and this thread hasn't been linked into it. I think it should be.

[chicagopcclcar1]

Stanley Cup Champions, Chicago Blackhawks; CTA...Seems like its time for another sports Championship wrap.... like the CTA 3311-3312 for the Champion Chicago White Sox.



DH

[nomarandlee]

I admitting know next to nothing about electrification, motor engineering, train infrastructure etc. so my next question will likely reflect that. However here she goes......

Is there any type of duel train engine that could be the potential remedy so that these underground terminals will not be have to run on their diesel engine? Would there be anyway to implement an electrification/catenary system for at least the last few hundred yards or say 1/4 mile near the end of the terminal. Then at least when these engines are idling underground they can switch over to an electric system. Then when they go out on the outbound runs they switch over to diesel.

I remember reading a few weeks ago about the new DMU airport express trains that Toronto is using that are capable of running as diesel but also have the on-board infrastructure to have the potential to run the trains as EMU's when the electric infrastructures goes up along the line in the next few years.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/w...615-story.html

Union Station air tested by EPA for diesel pollution

By Michael Hawthorne
Chicago Tribune
contact the reporter

........Potential targets for legal action, if it comes to that, include Metra, the regional commuter rail agency, and Amtrak, the passenger rail operator that runs up to 56 trains daily out of Union Station.

Another could be the owner of the Old Post Office that straddles the southbound tracks. Bill Davies, a British developer who bought the vacant building in 2009, already is under a federal court order to maintain a massive ventilation system that sucks diesel fumes from Union Station tunnels...........

..

[ardecila]

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive


These are common in the New York area - any Amtrak train pulling into Penn Station, even long-distance trains, needs to be on electric power, so Amtrak either swaps out the locomotive at an outlying station or uses a dual-mode locomotive the whole time.

The issue with electrifying Union Station is overhead clearance - the ceilings are too low for most overhead wire systems. You'd be forced to use overhead contact rail or 3rd rail, both of which have drawbacks.

[streetline]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive


These are common in the New York area - any Amtrak train pulling into Penn Station, even long-distance trains, needs to be on electric power, so Amtrak either swaps out the locomotive at an outlying station or uses a dual-mode locomotive the whole time.

The issue with electrifying Union Station is overhead clearance - the ceilings are too low for most overhead wire systems. You'd be forced to use overhead contact rail or 3rd rail, both of which have drawbacks.

I wonder if they could go hybrid in the same sense that cars do, with batteries recharged by the diesel engine. They don't need a particularly long range on battery, just the last couple of miles coming into the station would do the job. And I expect that there would be efficiency gains to be had from even a small storage system, by keeping the engines at their optimum revs better than an electric transmission without batteries.

[ardecila]

^ Actually, such hybrid locomotives do exist... but the technology is still in its infancy. Right now, they are only used for small switching locomotives that don't need to haul huge loads or travel at speed for long distances.

The new Siemens locomotives coming online for Amtrak in the Midwest and the West Coast are actually hybrids, so possibly these can be run in all-electric mode while in Union Station and make a dent in emissions. Metra could also buy some in the future, although they have very little money to do so.

[mousquet]

Hopefully this would be a temporary solution. Batteries could be reloaded on electric supply as well. They do that for light rail trains already.
I'm astonished at Siemens engineering such hybrid locomotives... Why?

@ardecila You know by heart the Paris subway is on 3rd rail. Why would it be any problem in this case?

[ardecila]

Third rail systems are more dangerous than overhead wire. Union Station also has narrow, low level platforms, which means that someone could easily slip off the platform and get electrocuted on the third rail. Also, any kind of standing water will knock out the power to the third rail, so they'd have to upgrade the drainage systems.

Hybrid locomotives are probably the cheapest way to keep Union Station's air clean, and they can be folded into Metra's periodic locomotive replacement.

[paytonc]

Originally Posted by ardecila

These are common in the New York area - any Amtrak train pulling into Penn Station, even long-distance trains, needs to be on electric power, so Amtrak either swaps out the locomotive at an outlying station or uses a dual-mode locomotive the whole time.

Amtrak's dual-modes only switch to electric for 10 minutes, right inside Penn Station:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Genesis#P32AC-DM
NY Penn Station has high-level platforms, so people aren't walking across a third rail.

If I were designing an in-station power system now, I might look into the wireless induction charging systems now being rolled out for streetcars and buses. Airlines are testing out various auxiliary engines, or even EV tugs, to taxi planes between the runway and the gate.

[Mr Downtown]

^I can't figure out what the 10-minute limitation (noted in the Wikipedia article) would come from.

Diesel-electric locomotives are merely electric locomotives that carry a power plant around with them. So why would getting the motor current from a third-rail shoe rather than the generator bus need to be something only done for a few minutes at a time?

Predecessors of those special Genesis units were the dual-mode F units run for many years by the New Haven (and successors) that switched to third-rail shoes so they could shut off the diesels for the Grand Central approach. I never heard of any time limitations on those.

[CTA Gray Line]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-...train-to-ohare

WRITTEN BY BY FRAN SPIELMAN AND ROSALIND ROSSI POSTED: 06/25/2015, 12:01AM

An express train from downtown to O’Hare International Airport could be built on a second level of track above the CTA’s Blue Line, providing a first-of-its-kind “double-decker” service down the middle of the Kennedy Expressway, Chicago Aviation Commissioner Ginger Evans said Wednesday....

[Randomguy34]

Any structural engineers here know the feasibility of building another set of tracks over the blue line (Ignoring the subway ceiling height)? Have there been any examples of "double decked" tracks in the world? The article said that it would be the first of its kind in the US.

[ardecila]

^ Yes... several examples in New York, but they are 100-ish years old. (eg Queens Plaza)

In Chicago the airport express would probably go on the UP-NW tracks for most of the way, then run on a double deck above the Kennedy from Austin Ave west, like the AirTrain runs over the Van Wyck in Queens. As you might imagine this is very expensive to build.