The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Franco401]

The Crossing serves no benefit except that of making money for the developer. Putting it in that location is transparently in hopes of serving customers from KV. Saint John has arguably the most overbuilt city services anywhere in Canada and expanding them in the flood-probe east side makes no sense.

[adamuptownsj]

Yes, exactly. It's not even in alignment with city zoning, planning, or growth policies. Strikes out on all three. There isn't much of a gap between Rothesay and the East Side, it's like one exit from Brookville and two from central Rothesay. Who needs to stop halfway between Rothesay and Mile One? Who wants to live with the inconvenience of the Valley coupled with Saint John property taxes? And most importantly, why are the other residents of Saint John supposed to subsidize an elaborate interchange and flood mitigation project?

Exit 123 on the westbound side of Route 1 would make a great place for a smaller, denser, more retail and quick service development. It would take a bit of realignment of Winter Street to its original route (straight from Winter to Paradise) and a big change to the existing westbound offramp, but it's a great spot to improve as the eastern gate to the city. Right now it's grass and dirt.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by Franco401

The Crossing serves no benefit except that of making money for the developer. Putting it in that location is transparently in hopes of serving customers from KV.

Well, I did do my Urban Planning second year thesis on strategic node zoning and development of underused or abandoned industrial districts to reverse suburban sprawl in America's rust belt cities, but I think I will leave this topic alone as I'm clearly not adding any value here.

[adamuptownsj]

Alright, well, that's nice, but the Crossing would be in direct contradiction to the 'developing of underused or abandoned industrial districts to reverse suburban sprawl' because it's greenfield wetland with 'nodes' one exit away to both the east and west, in a city full of underused light industrial and retail space, with more road and pipe per capita than anywhere else in the country already.

[thefishingnut]

I drive in Rothesay Road almost every day, and there are numerous times every year that the property proposed for the Crossing is flooded, with flooding across Ashburn Road and Rothesay Road lasting for days.

That whole area should just be declared protected habitat and left alone. It is ridiculous to stick a development in a place where from day 1 they have to include flood mitigation measures.

[RR Drummer]

https://ift.tt/3re9Li9 Interesting CBC article I seen on Twitter about a recent acquisition of apartments in Saint John, Uptown & East. Two sided coin in a nutshell for sure. Thoughts?

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Alright, well, that's nice, but the Crossing would be in direct contradiction to the 'developing of underused or abandoned industrial districts to reverse suburban sprawl' because it's greenfield wetland with 'nodes' one exit away to both the east and west, in a city full of underused light industrial and retail space, with more road and pipe per capita than anywhere else in the country already.

I think you'd need to read the research and the studies to have a better grasp of the concept I'm talking about.

Anyhow, this thread is probably the most negative and challenging to be engaged with in my many years on Skyscraperpage forums Adamuptownsj. So much negativity and you are very quick to jump on people and say how they are wrong and you are right, without any credentials or attempt to understand the point of the other person. It almost kicks off a bandwagon of complaints and negative discussion each time someone you disagree with posts something.

Anyhow, I'm going to leave this thread and focus on others as I simply find the tone here unproductive. Healthy and constructive debate is great, but I find this thread to be simply too insular and exclusionist compared to those in Halifax, Moncton, or Fredericton.

Best of Luck!

[adamuptownsj]

The point of internet forums is you can't use credentials as a cudgel. It's a piece of paper. Strength of argument is the only thing that matters.

The Crossing is not happening anyway and multiple posters (laymen, at that!) explained how poorly thought out it was from a number of perspectives: required taxpayer commitment, location, market, etc. There's nothing negative going on here. I suggested close to ten locations suitable for similar development up-thread, none of which are below sea level or need massive extension of infrastructure to be viable.

I will not comment on your personal critique.

[BrFo96]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I think you'd need to read the research and the studies to have a better grasp of the concept I'm talking about.

Anyhow, this thread is probably the most negative and challenging to be engaged with in my many years on Skyscraperpage forums Adamuptownsj. So much negativity and you are very quick to jump on people and say how they are wrong and you are right, without any credentials or attempt to understand the point of the other person. It almost kicks off a bandwagon of complaints and negative discussion each time someone you disagree with posts something.

Anyhow, I'm going to leave this thread and focus on others as I simply find the tone here unproductive. Healthy and constructive debate is great, but I find this thread to be simply too insular and exclusionist compared to those in Halifax, Moncton, or Fredericton.

Best of Luck!

You must be new to the internet if this conversation is one of the most negative you've ever encountered.

[cdnguys]

From 2017 to end of 2021, about 345 homes were built in Quispamsis and 119 apartment dwellings. Approx 103 new homes started in 2021 alone.

The average household size in Quispamsis is 2.7 persons so based on that Quispamsis’s current population is around 19,500 and now currently growing population at a rate of 1.5% annually. Based on what I’m seeing, I think this will increase dramatically over the next decade.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

From 2017 to end of 2021, about 345 homes were built in Quispamsis and 119 apartment dwellings. Approx 103 new homes started in 2021 alone.

The average household size in Quispamsis is 2.7 persons so based on that Quispamsis’s current population is around 19,500 and now currently growing population at a rate of 1.5% annually. Based on what I’m seeing, I think this will increase dramatically over the next decade.

Will it? There's only so much space left and further growth for SFHs will have to push further north and east through Meenan's Cove and into Hammond River. Going in that direction further separates people from Route 1 and connections into the city. It's possible development could hop over Route 1 to the south but i'm not sure what the land composition is like there, and I imagine much of Hammond River is swamp. I see there's a few subdivisions coming online on French Village and Elliot Roads south of Route 1 but this will surely only exacerbate traffic issues into the future without significant upgrades.

Once you start getting separated from the highway in Hammond River one may as well be living in Hampton south and east of Route1.

Developments could start pushing upwards and Quispamsis could begin building more apartment buildings but i'm not sure how appealing that is versus living in a similar build in the city. The Hampton Road/Campbell Drive area seems like an obvious spot to increase residential density but it wouldn't be a great place to live as a pedestrian without likely road diet - I can't imagine that going over very well.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Will it? There's only so much space left and further growth for SFHs will have to push further north and east through Meenan's Cove and into Hammond River. Going in that direction further separates people from Route 1 and connections into the city. It's possible development could hop over Route 1 to the south but i'm not sure what the land composition is like there, and I imagine much of Hammond River is swamp. I see there's a few subdivisions coming online on French Village and Elliot Roads south of Route 1 but this will surely only exacerbate traffic issues into the future without significant upgrades.

Once you start getting separated from the highway in Hammond River one may as well be living in Hampton south and east of Route1.

Developments could start pushing upwards and Quispamsis could begin building more apartment buildings but i'm not sure how appealing that is versus living in a similar build in the city. The Hampton Road/Campbell Drive area seems like an obvious spot to increase residential density but it wouldn't be a great place to live as a pedestrian without likely road diet - I can't imagine that going over very well.

Elmtree Hill apartment complex alone will be 100 units. There are several pockets of old quispamsis being filled in and if you look at PAC activity there are a lot of new subdivisions seeking approval. From what I’m hearing in construction industry is 80% of quispamsis new builds are being purchased by out of province buyers who intend on living at property. They basically can’t build them fast enough to keep up with demand. Went for a drive a few times out there and crazy number of new streets that appeared with new homes sprouting up seemingly overnight. Also the 19,500 estimate includes about 200 new residents that purchased existing homes on market that would otherwise be in the MLS inventory unoccupied.

[JHikka]

I don't doubt that construction growth in Quispamsis is intense, as much as it is everywhere else in the Maritimes these days, but i'm not sold on the population increasing dramatically over the next decade. At some point it will reach a natural ceiling where then developments will have to start growing upwards and larger, and we've seen the sort of opposition those developments have already received.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't doubt that construction growth in Quispamsis is intense, as much as it is everywhere else in the Maritimes these days, but i'm not sold on the population increasing dramatically over the next decade. At some point it will reach a natural ceiling where then developments will have to start growing upwards and larger, and we've seen the sort of opposition those developments have already received.

We are seeing trends with larger households (new families moving in) and that has a natural impact. I think you’ll see the Otty Glen / Meenans Cove area continue to rapidly expand.

[darkharbour]

Quispamsis is going to have some issues coming up if they increase density more. They have no municipal water system at all outside of a bit in the industrial/commerical park(s) and a few households near the town line who are on Rothesay's system. That many wells close together isn't sustainable, or at least isn't if we continue getting hotter, drier summers. and the town considers higher density. The town is massive in physical area as well, so retrofitting a system, or renewing their other infrastructure is going to be a major debt load moving forward.

Quispam is nice and all, but it is going to hit growing pains eventually that the city and its older neighbourhoods went through decades ago. I'm hoping for overall regional growth, a little more evenly distributed across the urban and suburban areas than it had been in the late 20th century.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Quispamsis is going to have some issues coming up if they increase density more. They have no municipal water system at all outside of a bit in the industrial/commerical park(s) and a few households near the town line who are on Rothesay's system. That many wells close together isn't sustainable, or at least isn't if we continue getting hotter, drier summers. and the town considers higher density. The town is massive in physical area as well, so retrofitting a system, or renewing their other infrastructure is going to be a major debt load moving forward.

How close are the municipal tax rates between SJ and Quispamsis now that SJ has lowered its property taxes? I was under the impression that the only benefit of living in the Valley versus in Millidgeville was that the tax rate was much cheaper in the Valley (and maybe getting a little bit less fog). Municipal projects like bigger, wider, newer roads, water systems, safety services, etc. cannot function on rural tax rates.

I don't recall if I ever expressed this opinion on here but effectively it was that Saint John would become more competitive with the outlying suburbs eventually simply by holding its tax rate steady due to the municipal projects required in Quispamsis and the incoming tax rate increase that will be needed in that community.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How close are the municipal tax rates between SJ and Quispamsis now that SJ has lowered its property taxes? I was under the impression that the only benefit of living in the Valley versus in Millidgeville was that the tax rate was much cheaper in the Valley (and maybe getting a little bit less fog). Municipal projects like bigger, wider, newer roads, water systems, safety services, etc. cannot function on rural tax rates.

I don't recall if I ever expressed this opinion on here but effectively it was that Saint John would become more competitive with the outlying suburbs eventually simply by holding its tax rate steady due to the municipal projects required in Quispamsis and the incoming tax rate increase that will be needed in that community.

1.32 vs 1.71 in Saint John. With the new higher valuations of SJ property it should theoretically drop to the 1.50 range over next couple years. My house is assessed at $170k and I could sell in one day easily for $320k. Hopefully SNB gets their shit together for next year

[JakeNB]

What people forget in the property tax comparison is that electricity rates are 10% less in SJ due to Saint John Energy’s efficiency. Also, the cost of commuting can be a significant factor. I work uptown and my drive is approx 5 min. Many of my colleagues live in the KV and their fuel costs are significantly higher.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

What people forget in the property tax comparison is that electricity rates are 10% less in SJ due to Saint John Energy’s efficiency. Also, the cost of commuting can be a significant factor. I work uptown and my drive is approx 5 min. Many of my colleagues live in the KV and their fuel costs are significantly higher.

That's the point I was getting at wrt places like Hammond River. Once you get that far out, and that separated from the highway, the costs and time difference for commuting don't really seem to add up. Maybe i'm wrong, though; the occasional person seems to like commuting from Kingston Peninsula or St. George.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That's the point I was getting at wrt places like Hammond River. Once you get that far out, and that separated from the highway, the costs and time difference for commuting don't really seem to add up. Maybe i'm wrong, though; the occasional person seems to like commuting from Kingston Peninsula or St. George.

I’m with you, I live just minutes from Uptown by car, or a 20 minute walk. I spent a year recently commuting from an inherited family home in Rothesay (which is half the distance of some parts of Quispamsis) and it was not cheaper at all. Between electricity costs and gas, there was no advantage in cost versus SJ taxes, not to mentioned I get municipal water instead of the long-term costs of a well, and have access to more services like transit. Factor in the quality of life improvement in being close to the core and not losing so much of my day sitting in a car, I think I’m way ahead in terms of value.

Not saying no-one should live in the suburbs or rural areas, because we need choices that meet everyone’s priorities, but the old cost argument does’t hold water anymore.