DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

So Long, San Fran, LA, NYC, Seattle and D.C. — Hello Miami, Phoenix, Tampa, Sacramento and Vegas!

guess I'm one of these migrants. Sold Denver (not even a full day on the market with multiple offers over listing)

I still will be a lurker on the board, curious how things turn out. I thought conditions were deteriorating enough that I wasn't enjoying the city environment as much anymore.

Moved to Cleveland and had my pick of any neighborhood. Ended up with a newish townhouse next to Lake Erie and a fantastic street car neighborhood with restaurants, theaters and breweries. No more daily encounters with homeless, drug addicts, and vandalism. Plus the price differential was like winning the lottery in free cash.

Cleveland has amazing big city amenities even though they are pretty small market. Some parts of the city are growing again and its really cool seeing the old industrial core with massive bridges and steel mills. Cost of living seems quite a bit less. ($6 brews!)

I found their version of Denver Infill, and lots of exciting projects in the works. The tallest building under constructions is 616'. The tallest existing building is 888' - the Key Tower.

Still hope Denver thrives!

[CONative]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

guess I'm one of these migrants. Sold Denver (not even a full day on the market with multiple offers over listing)

I still will be a lurker on the board, curious how things turn out. I thought conditions were deteriorating enough that I wasn't enjoying the city environment as much anymore.

Moved to Cleveland and had my pick of any neighborhood. Ended up with a newish townhouse next to Lake Erie and a fantastic street car neighborhood with restaurants, theaters and breweries. No more daily encounters with homeless, drug addicts, and vandalism. Plus the price differential was like winning the lottery in free cash.

Cleveland has amazing big city amenities even though they are pretty small market. Some parts of the city are growing again and its really cool seeing the old industrial core with massive bridges and steel mills. Cost of living seems quite a bit less. ($6 brews!)

I found their version of Denver Infill, and lots of exciting projects in the works. The tallest building under constructions is 616'. The tallest existing building is 888' - the Key Tower.

Still hope Denver thrives!

Funny that you say this....since one of my friends just moved back to Denver from Cleveland....saying that it's getting bad there and wanted to come back. Knew it was more expensive here, but worth it in culture and weather that will not change. Said the weather there is just miserable. I told him about the uptick and crime and other issues lately in Denver -- and he said Cleveland has the same latest issues and that it's all part of a cycle. Reminded me that the late 80's/early 90's Denver was not fun, but it became one of THE destinations not long after and has been for a long period. I have been to Cleveland a few times -- and my impression was that it's depressing as a whole. I did like that 888' tower though. It seems a lot of folks are moving from their cities to escape something they aren't happy with -- only to find that the grass isn't as green as they thought -- with the same or other issues awaiting them. I just sold my 1.2m house to buy a new-build 800k house and downsize in Denver. New buyers of my house hate Florida and want a change. Betcha they don't realize that Denver has some issues right now too. They are so excited about the Denver lifestyle, but they are likely just swapping problems for other problems. What's funny about my friend that moved back is that he was bragging SOO much about moving to Cleveland 5 years ago -- with the amount of trees, lower cost of living, being close to the water, easier to get to cities nearby, even being near Cedar Point etc. Told him he will be back when he is done convincing himself. Now he is back. I DO get the want/need to move due to prices though....until some can't stand it anymore.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by CONative

Funny that you say this....since one of my friends just moved back to Denver from Cleveland....saying that it's getting bad there and wanted to come back. Knew it was more expensive here, but worth it in culture and weather that will not change. Said the weather there is just miserable. I told him about the uptick and crime and other issues lately in Denver -- and he said Cleveland has the same latest issues and that it's all part of a cycle. Reminded me that the late 80's/early 90's Denver was not fun, but it became one of THE destinations not long after and has been for a long period. I have been to Cleveland a few times -- and my impression was that it's depressing as a whole. I did like that 888' tower though. It seems a lot of folks are moving from their cities to escape something they aren't happy with -- only to find that the grass isn't as green as they thought -- with the same or other issues awaiting them. I just sold my 1.2m house to buy a new-build 800k house and downsize in Denver. New buyers of my house hate Florida and want a change. Betcha they don't realize that Denver has some issues right now too. They are so excited about the Denver lifestyle, but they are likely just swapping problems for other problems. What's funny about my friend that moved back is that he was bragging SOO much about moving to Cleveland 5 years ago -- with the amount of trees, lower cost of living, being close to the water, easier to get to cities nearby, even being near Cedar Point etc. Told him he will be back when he is done convincing himself. Now he is back. I DO get the want/need to move due to prices though....until some can't stand it anymore.

Why would you shitpost Cleveland in such extensive detail? Why do people on this board feel the urge to put down other cities besides their own?

I've noticed a lot of Miami people moving to Denver lately, which is funny, because I think Miami is where I want to go next. Many people frequently just want a nice change of pace every decade or so. Denver and Miami, or Cleveland, offer that for each other. All great cities. I'm bullish on what Denver is doing, but that story of an emergent urban cornucopia is hardly unique.

[mhays]

There's definitely something attractive about moving to a cheaper city. I don't plan to do it, but I can daydream looking at the difference in condo prices! The "lottery" win sounds awesome.

I've spent very little time in Cleveland but also look at its local board and SSP threads sometimes. It looks like it's on an upswing in key areas. I also like the river/industrial vibe. (PS, Edgewater Park sounds like your description?)

[TakeFive]

Who Wouldathunk - the responses

Arapahoe - Sorry to see you go but best of luck (I wondered what had happened to you). Funny story...

I pick up this elementary school teacher and her 'boxes' of homework; it was late like after 10:00 pm and gave her a long ride home. Turns out her family was from Cleveland and her Dad took her to her only NFL football game. She still remembers "The Drive" from 1986 AFC Championship Game; her Dad was crushed.

The Drive:

Broncos quarterback John Elway, in a span of 5 minutes and 2 seconds, led his team 98 yards in 15 plays to tie the game with 37 seconds left in regulation. Denver won the game in overtime by making a 33-yard field goal, pulling off a 23–20 win over the Cleveland Browns.

Earlier in the evening I picked up two couples and asked them if they were Sun's fans; I didn't realize they were visiting and they said "Nope; we're Nuggets fans." Asked them where they lived; they said "Downtown Denver." Asked them on what street; they said Broadway; asked them for a cross-street; they said near I-25. So I said you're near the light rail station, then? They said they enjoy using it.

Ohio has done a great job of retooling their 'Rustbelt' background and reputation. FWIW, a lot of eastern Europeans live in Ohio. Cleveland with its industrial roots will have both good and bad and as everywhere is changing there will always be pluses and minuses.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by mhays

There's definitely something attractive about moving to a cheaper city. I don't plan to do it, but I can daydream looking at the difference in condo prices! The "lottery" win sounds awesome.

I've spent very little time in Cleveland but also look at its local board and SSP threads sometimes. It looks like it's on an upswing in key areas. I also like the river/industrial vibe. (PS, Edgewater Park sounds like your description?)
Reply With Quote

wow...thats dead-on, you know Cleveland! Love walking right down to the lake and having access to all that green space, beach and marina. The Gordon Square/Ohio City restaurants are fantastic, and an amazing value.

I get the climate trade. On the positive, tons of fresh water and real big storms. I love that stuff -- even lake effect snow.

Sure giving up mountains, but lets be honest, mountains are an hour plus of I-70 traffic hell from Denver and the lake Erie is 5 minutes on a pedestrian walkway.

btw, Ohioans are extremely friendly!

Anyway will surely miss all the energy of Denver. Hope the city center turns a corner on the issues effecting so much of the country right now.

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

wow...thats dead-on, you know Cleveland! Love walking right down to the lake and having access to all that green space, beach and marina. The Gordon Square/Ohio City restaurants are fantastic, and an amazing value.

I get the climate trade. On the positive, tons of fresh water and real big storms. I love that stuff -- even lake effect snow.

Sure giving up mountains, but lets be honest, mountains are an hour plus of I-70 traffic hell from Denver and the lake Erie is 5 minutes on a pedestrian walkway.

btw, Ohioans are extremely friendly!

Anyway will surely miss all the energy of Denver. Hope the city center turns a corner on the issues effecting so much of the country right now.

As someone living in the neighborhoods near downtown in the shadows of dozens of cranes and overflowing bars and restaurants, i can confidently say that the demise of downtown denver has been greatly exaggerated. We have construction everywhere, infrastructure investment everywhere you look, and a massively popular tourist destination. I understand housing costs are up but that’s really not isolated to denver is it?

Anyway, what im reading about denver doesn’t really match up with reality. Like the guy who said park hill wanst good enough so he wanted a cul de sac life. Lol.

Denver is thriving. The hate is ridiculous.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

guess I'm one of these migrants. Sold Denver (not even a full day on the market with multiple offers over listing)

I still will be a lurker on the board, curious how things turn out. I thought conditions were deteriorating enough that I wasn't enjoying the city environment as much anymore.

Moved to Cleveland and had my pick of any neighborhood. Ended up with a newish townhouse next to Lake Erie and a fantastic street car neighborhood with restaurants, theaters and breweries. No more daily encounters with homeless, drug addicts, and vandalism. Plus the price differential was like winning the lottery in free cash.

Cleveland has amazing big city amenities even though they are pretty small market. Some parts of the city are growing again and its really cool seeing the old industrial core with massive bridges and steel mills. Cost of living seems quite a bit less. ($6 brews!)

I found their version of Denver Infill, and lots of exciting projects in the works. The tallest building under constructions is 616'. The tallest existing building is 888' - the Key Tower.

Still hope Denver thrives!

We left Denver last Spring after 10 years and are back in OKC. A number of factors contributed to us leaving (affordability, pandemic babies, family, etc.), but doing so opened up a lot of opportunities financially. So far, the pros have outweighed the cons (for us). We still get to ride our bikes and walk to amenities (except when it's 100+ out). Transit is awful, but working to make better.

I absolutely LOVE Denver and spent the last 10 years working for the City to try and make it better (not sure if I succeeded or not). We miss it a lot.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

We left Denver last Spring after 10 years and are back in OKC. A number of factors contributed to us leaving (affordability, pandemic babies, family, etc.), but doing so opened up a lot of opportunities financially. So far, the pros have outweighed the cons (for us). We still get to ride our bikes and walk to amenities (except when it's 100+ out). Transit is awful, but working to make better.

I absolutely LOVE Denver and spent the last 10 years working for the City to try and make it better (not sure if I succeeded or not). We miss it a lot.

For me it was the real estate costs......

There were other factors (not a super hardcore outdoorsy person, love water, single, etc). But..... Denver has just gotten insanely expensive for what it is, to me at least.

Other people feel differently, and that's fine.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

As someone living in the neighborhoods near downtown in the shadows of dozens of cranes and overflowing bars and restaurants, i can confidently say that the demise of downtown denver has been greatly exaggerated. We have construction everywhere, infrastructure investment everywhere you look, and a massively popular tourist destination. I understand housing costs are up but that’s really not isolated to denver is it?

Anyway, what im reading about denver doesn’t really match up with reality. Like the guy who said park hill wanst good enough so he wanted a cul de sac life. Lol.

Denver is thriving. The hate is ridiculous.

Oh hey troll.

I never said whether Park Hill was "good enough". You're projecting your cantankerous stereotypes onto forum members again. My comment was only about cost of housing pushing people further out who'd rather live in the city. Specifically I was commenting on the cost of a family sized home in the North Park Hill (3-4 bedrooms) being much higher than homes in 70s and 80s tract home suburbia. And that most of my peers who've started families and didn't buy prior to 2019 or so have moved to those more automobile oriented areas. Even though they'd rather be in a more gridded, closer in neighborhood like Park Hill. My post was lamenting how that was an unhappy situation. Learn to read.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Why would you shitpost Cleveland in such extensive detail? Why do people on this board feel the urge to put down other cities besides their own?

I've noticed a lot of Miami people moving to Denver lately, which is funny, because I think Miami is where I want to go next. Many people frequently just want a nice change of pace every decade or so. Denver and Miami, or Cleveland, offer that for each other. All great cities. I'm bullish on what Denver is doing, but that story of an emergent urban cornucopia is hardly unique.

Make sure you teach any young kids you have not to mention the existence of gay or bi people while they're at school. You or your favorite teacher, if they acknowledge reality, can get sued now if that kind of talk makes a MAGA child "uncomfortable"

To an extent, I am always of the mind that you take whatever unhappiness you have with you no matter where you move. But there are compelling reasons to leave FL right now unless you enjoy the cruelty or you can find a way to add an extra comma to whatever earnings you're making in a year. I have to be honest though, even that can make you feel less like you're making good money and more like a wh*re. There's a calculation every year by us whether being able to leave the state for 14 weeks a year and that extra money is worth it or if we should save up enough to either hire batman or become one of Bunt's neighbors in a safe(r) neighborhood. Though honestly I haven't written off Downtown that much yet either. Every time I visit I see the same thing, it may actually be worse than it was but maybe being in a real city on vacation outweighs things to my vision. (except when the city decides to make downtown look like an reverse internment camp with fences everywhere)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Make sure you teach any young kids you have not to mention the existence of gay or bi people while they're at school. You or your favorite teacher, if they acknowledge reality, can get sued now if that kind of talk makes a MAGA child "uncomfortable"

To an extent, I am always of the mind that you take whatever unhappiness you have with you no matter where you move. But there are compelling reasons to leave FL right now unless you enjoy the cruelty or you can find a way to add an extra comma to whatever earnings you're making in a year. I have to be honest though, even that can make you feel less like you're making good money and more like a wh*re. There's a calculation every year by us whether being able to leave the state for 14 weeks a year and that extra money is worth it or if we should save up enough to either hire batman or become one of Bunt's neighbors in a safe(r) neighborhood. Though honestly I haven't written off Downtown that much yet either. Every time I visit I see the same thing, it may actually be worse than it was but maybe being in a real city on vacation outweighs things to my vision. (except when the city decides to make downtown look like an reverse internment camp with fences everywhere)

Downtown has gotten better, I would say. There are more office workers, though that is clearly still the part that is struggling, and probably will continue to struggle, like in every City. Downtown feels empty now, but less post-apocalyptic more like a dead office park. Or like most downtowns in this country. (I was in Dallas last week - way, way more dead. That downtown is SAD.) But it sure seems the hotels in Denver are full again, and that puts a lot of feet on the streets.

I can't imagine living in Florida these days. At least until we elect your dude President, then we can all have the privilege of living in Florida. I have been meaning to check - do you know, is there something aspirational in the Florida Constitution, driving the state to out-Texas Texas? It seems like Florida is unified around that singular common purpose. Maybe the goal is to assume the mantle of leadership of the South? From Georgia (who have been cheated out of their rightful place through some wily Democrat voter fraud) and Texas, who never really quite wants it.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Downtown has gotten better, I would say. There are more office workers, though that is clearly still the part that is struggling, and probably will continue to struggle, like in every City. Downtown feels empty now, but less post-apocalyptic more like a dead office park. Or like most downtowns in this country. (I was in Dallas last week - way, way more dead. That downtown is SAD.) But it sure seems the hotels in Denver are full again, and that puts a lot of feet on the streets.

I can't imagine living in Florida these days. At least until we elect your dude President, then we can all have the privilege of living in Florida. I have been meaning to check - do you know, is there something aspirational in the Florida Constitution, driving the state to out-Texas Texas? It seems like Florida is unified around that singular common purpose. Maybe the goal is to assume the mantle of leadership of the South? From Georgia (who have been cheated out of their rightful place through some wily Democrat voter fraud) and Texas, who never really quite wants it.

Sure seems like it. Though if I could move this job to Austin or San Antonio tomorrow I would.

Republican leaders are smart. If you scream SOCIALIST at the certain populations in the state quickly and loudly enough they do whatever you want and they screamed first. The way I sleep at night is imagining that somewhere, somehow, there is a Machiavellian progressive pulling strings making Florida pull a prop 187 situation that effectively renders conservatives a laughingstock to their follow citizens in the state and not just the rest of the country. Is it 'don't say gay'? Probably not. But It seems universal that once you have enough power you eventually do something bone headed enough that it all goes away for a generation (I hope someone is telling progressives in Cali this btw).

I'm glad you endorse my latest impression of Downtown. I was there a few weeks ago and it looked fine. Pretty much exactly as you describe really. Denver's worst day is still better than any day of a great manty other cities.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Honestly, each time I've been downtown this year, it has been surprisingly vibrant. Seems like most restaurants and bars are pretty packed on the weekend. I don't know what the Tuesday lunch rush looks like on 16th Street Mall but my experiences downtown don't align with the whole decline of downtown narrative. Hopefully, downtown becomes more resilient as significant residential development happens in downtown adjacent neighborhoods (Arapahoe square, Five Points, RiNo, Golden Triangle, etc...).

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

...Many people frequently just want a nice change of pace every decade or so. Denver and Miami, or Cleveland, offer that for each other. All great cities...

This is an excellent topic and one worth highlighting IMO. Part of the beauty of America has always been the ability to move around, chase a dream, experience something new, etc etc. Due to the price of housing in many cities, especially ones with well paying jobs, that ability and freedom of movement is dwindling at the moment - this is not a good thing. Much like California has become permanently unaffordable in large part due to a static housing market (ie not enough housing is produced overall so people don't sell homes or change leases because they can't find an equivalent place to afford to live so they live in the same place for 2, 3, 4 generations) many other places around the country are slowly/steadily progressing to that outcome. It's a more long term European model of housing. It has positives, but is overwhelmingly negative IMO because it stifles growth and as such, opportunity. How does that relate to Denver? Well, we see people leaving for more affordable places and/or staying in place and we are at the beginnings of a static housing economy. It will only get worse over the coming years. As California learned the hard way, you can't stop people from coming. There is no hose spicket to turn the water on and off no matter how many times you scream out loud.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Make sure you teach any young kids you have not to mention the existence of gay or bi people while they're at school. You or your favorite teacher, if they acknowledge reality, can get sued now if that kind of talk makes a MAGA child "uncomfortable"

To an extent, I am always of the mind that you take whatever unhappiness you have with you no matter where you move. But there are compelling reasons to leave FL right now unless you enjoy the cruelty or you can find a way to add an extra comma to whatever earnings you're making in a year. I have to be honest though, even that can make you feel less like you're making good money and more like a wh*re. There's a calculation every year by us whether being able to leave the state for 14 weeks a year and that extra money is worth it or if we should save up enough to either hire batman or become one of Bunt's neighbors in a safe(r) neighborhood. Though honestly I haven't written off Downtown that much yet either. Every time I visit I see the same thing, it may actually be worse than it was but maybe being in a real city on vacation outweighs things to my vision. (except when the city decides to make downtown look like an reverse internment camp with fences everywhere)

I sometimes wonder if people who blog/post about cities/architecture/development are actual real people or just figments of my own imagination that I created to entertain myself. And then you guys all call each other troll like some kind of Mexican standoff. How gauche.

*Brings up a very cool Great Lakes rustbelt city*
*Somebody has to denigrate Cleveland at extensive length*

*Off-hand reference to Miami, and I think it's awesome Floridians are starting to move to Denver*
*You must enjoy cruelty and wh*ring for money because they're homophobic and Republican*

None of these are normal thought patterns that real people have.

I will probably either move to Mexico City, if I can work remotely/internationally, or Miami, because I appreciate the warmth and culture. I don't actually care one way or another about the local politics because that's insane. I learned one thing since Trump took office, and the GOP followed him over the cliff and Dems all contracted Trump derangement obsession syndrome, which is that politics of all affiliations tends to attract nerds who lack social skills, decency, and common sense.

I believe ALL cities and ALL cultures are pretty cool. Denver is a great city. So are Miami, Cleveland, and whatever other cities have been mentioned here.

Except for Phoenix, that's just one big sweltering Walmart parking lot. Sorry TakeFive.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

...But It seems universal that once you have enough power you eventually do something bone headed enough that it all goes away for a generation (I hope someone is telling progressives in Cali this btw)...

You know what they say...Hard times create strong men, who create good times, which create weak men, who create hard times. Now expand that to women and all the other pronouns I recognize and appreciate but don't totally understand and it's a complete quote.

[TakeFive]

Another face I've been wondering about

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

We left Denver last Spring after 10 years and are back in OKC. A number of factors contributed to us leaving (affordability, pandemic babies, family, etc.), but doing so opened up a lot of opportunities financially. So far, the pros have outweighed the cons (for us). We still get to ride our bikes and walk to amenities (except when it's 100+ out). Transit is awful, but working to make better.

I absolutely LOVE Denver and spent the last 10 years working for the City to try and make it better (not sure if I succeeded or not). We miss it a lot.

I'm really happy that you are doing well. We go back quite a ways so I appreciate the update.

----------------------
That may be the best tobacco I've experienced

Originally Posted by gopokes21

None of these are normal thought patterns that real people have.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Oh and I believe ALL cities and ALL cultures are pretty cool. Denver is a great city. So are Miami, Cleveland, and whatever other cities have been mentioned here.

It's entirely normal, especially for those who are still young and foolish to go through various "maturing" phases with respect to desired lifestyle etc. This is neither good or bad so much as what happens.

BTW, I'm unbothered by those who don't care for the desert clime.

[TakeFive]

The Urban view as apposed the the suburban view, I suspect

Originally Posted by bunt_q

(I was in Dallas last week - way, way more dead. That downtown is SAD.) But it sure seems the hotels in Denver are full again, and that puts a lot of feet on the streets.

I can't imagine living in Florida these days.

Having been in and out of downtown Phoenix over the weekend it is impressive how 'urban' it is becoming. All those new 'tall boys.' There's also a fair amount of "infill" but that is more prominent in areas that are more Cherry Creek-like. Still, long-time down-towners have a lot to talk about so that is nice.

Uber was nice enough to send me to visit several 'new' places I hadn't yet been too. Dallas and Phoenix are similar in that respect. Suburban 'entertainment' districts were just crawling with people all weekend and many suburban areas have their own 'urban renewal' version of life which are hot spots.

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Sure seems like it. Though if I could move this job to Austin or San Antonio tomorrow I would.

Republican leaders are smart. If you scream SOCIALIST at the certain populations in the state quickly and loudly enough they do whatever you want and they screamed first.

We both like hockey and I thank the Avalanche for making me a good fan of the game. When I 'grew up' soccer wasn't a sport that I came to know or appreciate - despite its growing popularity.

The absolute worst and most disgusting sport has to be politics.

Yesterday, I picked up a gal from Miami who looked to be indigenous which is to say she was probably of Cuban descent. She brought her money as I shuttled her from one 'JW' where she got a special treatment for her injured ankle to another JW where she was staying. She does like Miami.

When I pick up a Pax from Nebraska, Illinois, Wisconsin or Ohio I usually bring up my mid-west roots for commonality. Getting snapshots of all these people from various places is enlightening.

Regardless where we come from the vast majority of us are mostly 'pragmatic' who view politics as an inane sideshow.

I would agree with you that currently 'socialism' is NOT en vogue. You have to tip your hat to Republicans for winning over Hispanics in South Texas. Confirmed by my son's mom who lived in Mexico City for a time on a faith-based mission, there is a distinct machismo among Hispanics so it seems that the Big Bully approach even has its appeal to that demographic.

------------------

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Honestly, each time I've been downtown this year, it has been surprisingly vibrant. Seems like most restaurants and bars are pretty packed on the weekend. I don't know what the Tuesday lunch rush looks like on 16th Street Mall but my experiences downtown don't align with the whole decline of downtown narrative. Hopefully, downtown becomes more resilient as significant residential development happens in downtown adjacent neighborhoods (Arapahoe square, Five Points, RiNo, Golden Triangle, etc...).

Infill is a good thing for sure. For long-time Denver urbanites like Ken who have witnessed the ups and downs of downtown this is the best of times. We owe a lot of downtown Denver's success to these urban souls.

However
Infill has not solved the many problems that San Francisco is dealing with and they are currently experiencing their own 'conservative' backlash, especially among the Asian community which is interesting.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

I sometimes wonder if people who blog/post about cities/architecture/development are actual real people or just figments of my own imagination that I created to entertain myself. And then you guys all call each other troll like some kind of Mexican standoff. How gauche.

*Brings up a very cool Great Lakes rustbelt city*
*Somebody has to denigrate Cleveland at extensive length*

*Off-hand reference to Miami, and I think it's awesome Floridians are starting to move to Denver*
*You must enjoy cruelty and wh*ring for money because they're homophobic and Republican*

None of these are normal thought patterns that real people have.

I will probably either move to Mexico City, if I can work remotely/internationally, or Miami, because I appreciate the warmth and culture. I don't actually care one way or another about the local politics because that's insane. I learned one thing since Trump took office, and the GOP followed him over the cliff and Dems all contracted Trump derangement obsession syndrome, which is that politics of all affiliations tends to attract nerds who lack social skills, decency, and common sense.

I believe ALL cities and ALL cultures are pretty cool. Denver is a great city. So are Miami, Cleveland, and whatever other cities have been mentioned here.

Except for Phoenix, that's just one big sweltering Walmart parking lot. Sorry TakeFive.

Excuse me for hitting your nerve. I forgot that a lot of people in places like Denver need their safe spaces and musing about my own moments of shame that I'm working with that extra comma/vacation and wonder if "I" am the whore triggers people with molecularly thin skin.

I'm happy for you that literally being sued/the impetus for a teacher being sued if my upcoming children make others uncomfortable and they speak about their "two daddies" in 3rd grade is local politics that you're annoyed at talking about. Lovely that that is so far out of your experience through either being in your blue bubble, or being straight, or childless that you don't have to worry about it and gay parents' worries like mine make me a - what did you say? - a "nerd who lacks social skills, decency, and common sense?" How very typically (Denver's brand of mostly fake) compassionate of you.

One good side effect of this board is that I can see the silver lining of NOT returning if I don't so thanks for that at least.