Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[drew]

^ owning a vehicle is always a money losing venture.

You current month to month costs maybe comparable to a bus pass, but you also had to purchase your car, maintain it, fix it when it breaks and likely pay to park it fairly regularly.

At the end of the day, you pay for convenience. Some people can't afford it, some people don't have a license and sometimes people just don't want to drive.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by drew

^ owning a vehicle is always a money losing venture.

You current month to month costs maybe comparable to a bus pass, but you also had to purchase your car, maintain it, fix it when it breaks and likely pay to park it fairly regularly.

At the end of the day, you pay for convenience. Some people can't afford it, some people don't have a license and sometimes people just don't want to drive.

It all depends.

If one has a job inaccessible by transit, and this is especially true today where industries are springing up all over the outskirts of town with no transit service (Centreport, Oak Bluff, McPhillips and #8, McGillivary and Kenaston, or Transcona), then it makes perfect sense to own a vehicle.

Obviously if one works downtown or in the inner city, a car is not nearly as important. However, a quick job search reveals that if one is without access to a vehicle, they may be shut out of 33% of job opportunities, especially if one works in warehousing, transport, or manufacturing.

Personally, I own a vehicle (in the shop right now), and I find it more convenient to drive to outlying areas and save 2 hours off my commute in winter. That way I have more time for shopping, errands, and getting to and from appointments.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I find it also is subjective to the person what is considered "abusive" or an "incident". Someone talking loudly, or drinking wine, or whatever, to me isn't an incident

Glaring at families and children under 10 years old, and calling them "the Taliban" (along with other racial slurs) and other hateful slurs is definitely an "incident." I cannot believe that you would minimise that type of behaviour. The family was notably terrified.

They've been attacked because a homeless person tried talking to them.

Personally, I have never been attacked by a homeless person, since I know how to diffuse situations if there is a confrontation. I am also 6'2/215, which definitely helps. The perception of an aggressive panhandler on a petite woman that is 5'2/105 would obviously be different than mine.

In general, the stats from transit show an increase in what they deem incidents.

That is probably because there HAS been an increase in incidents.

The problem is that people who have lived in Winnipeg their entire life may not notice the increase in criminal incidents and behaviour. After being away for 12 years, I cannot believe how fortified everything is. Just look at the Osborne Village for instance. Many business have locked down several of their entrances, namely Shoppers and Safeway. The MLCC store reminds me of getting into a night club with all the security.

We can't just stick our heads in the sand and say "shut up complainers" and imply that what I have personally seen did not happen, or that it rarely ever happens, since that would be a lie. I have yet to meet one person that has spent a significant amount of time in another large Canadian city, where the crime rate in Winnipeg is favourable to city "X"

I understand that some Winnipeg boosters will gaslight others into believe otherwise, but as I said before: "Winnipeg has a major crime problem" We can either do nothing (which is what Winnipeggers usually do), or we can organise community groups, and put pressure on politician to do something. For the record, Calgary Transit Police have been deputised for years, and have to power to arrest, and carry off people to jail, even if the offender runs off transit property. Hopefully, Winnipeg will take a cue, and learn from Calgary.

I rode the bus daily for a number of years to/from downtown. Less so in recent times with WFH. I never saw an actual physical altercation. I've seen people yelling at each other. People acting weird all the time. People sleeping across the front seats. Never once seen anything actually happen though.

Several people have been stabbed on or near bus stops (or even murdered) been murdered on Transit, including a driver in the last five or so years, so to imply abusive incidents rarely happen, is hard to believe.

source: Woman stabbed on Winnipeg transit bus, rushed to hospital in critical condition

Bus passenger stabbed by man uttering racial slurs: police

Winnipeg police believe same person stabbed 2 women Saturday evening

Woman recovering after being stabbed at Winnipeg bus shelter

‘Things just escalated:’ Man charged with murder in Winnipeg bus driver’s death

[bomberjet]

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not defending any of the actions.

But someone looking at me funny, or yelling at me, is not an attack or incident. If someone's yelling at kids or whatever the situation is, that's a different thing.

People yell at me regularly at work. But I don't report those as incidents to the police as that's the nature of my work and people.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not defending any of the actions.

But someone looking at me funny, or yelling at me, is not an attack or incident. If someone's yelling at kids or whatever the situation is, that's a different thing.[/quiote]

If a person is yelling at anyone that is a visible minority, and calling them Taliban members, is definitely an "incident." Your threshold for what consitutes an incident, is bizarre.

[pqoute]People yell at me regularly at work. But I don't report those as incidents to the police as that's the nature of my work and people.

Yes, because people yelling at you at work, is the exact same thing as a drunk (and possibly mentally ill) person yelling racist things at an innocent person, that they have no connection to, that is also a visible minority. I do not understand why you keep attempting to minimise an incident like this.

[BlackDog204]

........

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Several people have been stabbed on or near bus stops (or even murdered) been murdered on Transit, including a driver in the last five or so years, so to imply abusive incidents rarely happen, is hard to believe.

source: Woman stabbed on Winnipeg transit bus, rushed to hospital in critical condition

Bus passenger stabbed by man uttering racial slurs: police

Winnipeg police believe same person stabbed 2 women Saturday evening

Woman recovering after being stabbed at Winnipeg bus shelter

‘Things just escalated:’ Man charged with murder in Winnipeg bus driver’s death

Thing is, these incidents certainly need to be taken seriously but they ARE still, by definition, rare. Transit has over 130k riders every day, over 40 million rides per year. Someone getting stabbed on the bus is terrifying. But how often does it actually happen? Something that happens once every 20 million rides or so is in fact rare.

And no that's not "gaslighting" or minimizing the problem or burying our heads in the sand, it's just trying to look at the issue objectively without the hysteria. The way people overreact to media coverage of this stuff isn't helpful. If we treated auto collision deaths the same way people would be terrified to ever get in their cars. 80-100 Manitobans are killed on the roads every year and hundreds are seriously injured. Statistically speaking you're probably more likely to be killed or hurt driving than on a bus.

[bomberjet]

So you can see how different people see things differently. You keep putting words in my mouth.

If you go back to my comments, I acknowledged there's an increase of incidents with Transit. Of course I'm aware of the murder. Riding the bus I see there are people living, and dieing, in bus shelters.

But from my experience, I have not seen any serious situation in my travels over many years of riding the bus downtown. I'm not scared to ride the bus. But for people who don't ride the bus and may be considering it. The news only speaks to negative trends.

I think we all agree the issues need to be dealt with. But what does that look like.

As Edward mentioned, hysteria is not the answer. Hyper focus due to the connected world we live in mostly trends to the negative.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

As Edward mentioned, hysteria is not the answer. Hyper focus due to the connected world we live in mostly trends to the negative.

This is not hysteria, it's reality. I can see your point of view, in the fact that you probably have been living in Winnipeg for years, and do not notice this. Having been in Calgary and Edmonton for over a decade, I can tell you that this is not perception. Winnipeg legitimately is rougher than it was when I left for Alberta.

Is the fact that many businesses are literally fortified in the inner city (including the Osborne Village)now a figment of my imagination? Sometimes it takes a person who actually leaves the city, to obtain a better perspective of how unsafe areas of Winnipeg are.

I knew several Winnipeggers in Calgary and Edmonton living in "rough" areas like Forest Lawn, and the Beltline, and they all mention that compared to Winnipeg, the rough areas of Calgary and Edmonton are definitely more tame.

To call what I have personally observed, and four violent stabbings on buses or transit stops "hysteria" is to live in denial that there is actually a real problem with crime, and it needs to be addressed. I didn't mean to single you out, but this is the typical Winnipeg defense to avoiding real life issues with our city.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

This is not hysteria, it's reality. I can see your point of view, in the fact that you probably have been living in Winnipeg for years, and do not notice this. Having been in Calgary and Edmonton for over a decade, I can tell you that this is not perception. Winnipeg legitimately is rougher than it was when I left for Alberta.

Is the fact that many businesses are literally fortified in the inner city (including the Osborne Village)now a figment of my imagination? Sometimes it takes a person who actually leaves the city, to obtain a better perspective of how unsafe areas of Winnipeg are.

I knew several Winnipeggers in Calgary and Edmonton living in "rough" areas like Forest Lawn, and the Beltline, and they all mention that compared to Winnipeg, the rough areas of Calgary and Edmonton are definitely more tame.

To call what I have personally observed, and four violent stabbings on buses or transit stops "hysteria" is to live in denial that there is actually a real problem with crime, and it needs to be addressed. I didn't mean to single you out, but this is the typical Winnipeg defense to avoiding real life issues with our city.

To be fair, if you google Calgary transit crime you can find a bunch of incidents from the last year. Now I haven't taken the bus in a couple year but when I did I never saw what you are talking about. I felt uncomfortable a couple times but no more or less then I would anywhere else.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9861957/c...ault-suspects/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...fety-1.6795596
https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/11/...robbery-teens/
https://globalnews.ca/news/9652418/c...investigation/
https://newsroom.calgary.ca/police-i...ult-on-ctrain/

[Curmudgeon]

I've had a look at the 2025 plan and I could write a very long post but will try to keep reasonably short.

The system does need to be changed. It has changed remarkably little from the system of the WWII era with the routes simply being lengthened and branch-lined, in many cases to the point of absurdity such as 16 Osborne or 44 Grey, and the addition of numerous low frequency and low use suburban routes. The result is generally poor frequency even on heavily used portions of major routes. The city has dramatically changed. In the 1940s virtually the entire business and retail district was concentrated along Portage and Main, and the adjacent streets, between the Bay and the CPR Station. The city is now multi-nodal with a largely (and sadly) hollowed downtown. Ridership is lower now, despite more than 2.5 times the population. Yes, a major reason is the increase in private vehicle ownership, but it is also because of service levels (which were much reduced in the late 80s/early 90s). I agree with some others too who suggest that relative to car ownership using transit is not particularly good value. Adjusted for inflation, adult fares should be about $1.25 to $1.50 compared with the 1970's.

I like the elimination of many of the suburban branch lines. I like some of the new through routings, amongst others North Main-St. Mary's, Notre Dame-McPhillips and the combination of Academy and Crescent.

Some of the new route plans make little sense to me such as the new St. Anne's routing via Des Meurons and Provencher which will make travel much longer unless one transfers at the Junction.

Also will frequencies really improve along some of the major routes? Currently Henderson is served by 11, 40 and 41 during peak hours giving a service frequency of every few minutes at least south of Edison. It does not appear according to the legend that the F8 route will have frequencies as good as this. It looks like Ellice and Sargent will be interlined. I doubt service frequencies will be as good as at present. Also Selkirk-Talbot or Mountain-Munroe. I do like the idea of more direct routings from the North End to the east, but will service be as good as it currently is? Selkirk is presently far better served than Talbot for example, will the level of service be reduced to that at present on Talbot? Have to see when new schedules are released.

Not certain about some of the efficiencies either. Is there a service demand from Sturgeon and Silver to Grant Park? Is there enough traffic up Gateway to warrant that service; the Gateway route will have better service than Henderson?, there is not much up Gateway save for a Superstore. Will the Kildare branch of the Transcona route be as heavily patronized when one has to transfer to get to the Regent shopping area and is there any demand whatsoever for full-time service along Dugald Road or Marion east of Archibald? Why terminate at Wall and Wolever? Will all blue line buses on Portage go to Unicity? If so I see a lot of empty buses on the westernmost part of the route. Most other cities have short-turning on major routes to ensure the most heavily used portions of the route get very frequent service, while the outermost portions get reduced but still very adequate service. All Corydon buses need not run to Assiniboine Park for example, many if not even half (if frequencies were very good) could be turned back at Cambridge.
Note too that frequent service means 10 minutes or less at all times. Some of the FX and F routes show service frequency as little as every 30 minutes off peak. This is not frequent at all.

While a ten minute walk between stops on a main arterial route might be feasible in summer for some, it certainly is not during winter, esp. for those with mobility issues, the elderly or those with young children, given the icy sidewalks and bitter winds. In many ways I see many of the changes as reducing user-friendliness. Gone too appears to be service on the windswept and forlorn Graham Mall, after the investment of many millions of dollars. Reminds me of the awful giant hoops they once spent a lot of money on along Sargent Ave. that several years later were taken down and replaced with nothing. Someone's buddy made a buck or two.

This somewhat reminds of the overall transit system in Vancouver. If you're within a quick walk of the SkyTrain or some of the routes (ie. Broadway) service is quite good, but otherwise, even if you are close to a major arterial route (like Kingsway) or really just about anywhere east of Boundary Rd., service is not very good at all.

This plan still needs modification and clarification of the new schedules. Yes, I did end up being too long.

[bodaggin]

The most important thing hasn't been discussed here: data. Heat mapped data of travel start points and end points by time of day. You can't design a transit system without this.

The entity that has the most complete set of this data is Google. It tracks all your trips. Vehicle, transit, walking. All location data is tracked.

Get that data. Post that data. THEN you can design proper routes that work. Without it, all route design is just guessing.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

That would explain it.

Downtown to U of M should take 12-15min on "rapid" transit. No excuses.

If they want people to ride the bus, they need to increase speed. If a bus is as fast or faster than a car, and safer (no stabby crackheads), people will consider it.

I don't think that's realistic. You're asking for an average speed of about 70 kph. That's faster than the Union-Pearson express (56 kph) which has a top speed of 145 kph and only a few intermediate stops. Most heavy rail metros have top speeds of about 70 to 80 kph.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I don't think that's realistic. You're asking for an average speed of about 70 kph. That's faster than the Union-Pearson express (56 kph) which has a top speed of 145 kph and only a few intermediate stops. Most heavy rail metros have top speeds of about 70 to 80 kph.

They have a dedicated, mostly grade separated BRT lane. How isn't it reasonable?

U of M to downtown is 13km. At 60km/h avg that's 13mins. The busses on blue corridor go 80km/h. They can absolutely achieve 12-15min with stops. They just have to delete 6-7 of these insane stops, prioritize lights, and tweak the route.

[zalf]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

The most important thing hasn't been discussed here: data. Heat mapped data of travel start points and end points by time of day. You can't design a transit system without this.

The entity that has the most complete set of this data is Google. It tracks all your trips. Vehicle, transit, walking. All location data is tracked.

Get that data. Post that data. THEN you can design proper routes that work. Without it, all route design is just guessing.

They did do this.

I agree they should post it publicly, and you could probably FIPPA it if you want.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by zalf

They did do this.

I agree they should post it publicly, and you could probably FIPPA it if you want.

Whoa really? That's honestly surprising, thanks for sharing. They got from Google? Or what was the source?

Because their "road clicker traffic volume studies" and even transit ridership tracking won't tell much of anything. They need the exact start-points and end-points of all people's trips, across ALL transport methods. Only Google has that. That's the only way to properly design a system (and a roadway too).

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

They have a dedicated, mostly grade separated BRT lane. How isn't it reasonable?

U of M to downtown is 13km. At 60km/h avg that's 13mins. The busses on blue corridor go 80km/h. They can absolutely achieve 12-15min with stops. They just have to delete 6-7 of these insane stops, prioritize lights, and tweak the route.

Not so much about top speed but rather average speed. You have to consider dwell times and accelerating and decelerating. So for example the SkyTrain in Vancouver has a top speed of 80 but an average speed of 40 which is as fast or faster than by car depending on time of day.

I think there are only about 9 or 10 intermediate stations on the BRT so if you eliminate 6 or 7 you're essentially operating a direct express service to the University. The buses would have to get around other buses that are serving the intermediate stations.

The Heathrow Express runs the 16 miles non-stop to LHR from Paddington in Central London in 15 minutes, so just over 60mph or 100kph with top speeds in excess of 100mph or 160 kph. I don't believe there is any intra-urban transit line in North America, bus or rail, that comes close to this (the UP line as described above being the fastest in Canada) and the costs would be absolutely prohibitive for a city of this size.

Yes, the BRT is a done deal. It is what it is. It is longer than it should be and was way too expensive for what it is and compares unfavourably to the LRT systems in other cities. Can't change it now but hopefully in future Winnipeg will re-consider building other lines as LRT. I don't have high hopes though.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Yes, the BRT is a done deal. It is what it is. It is longer than it should be and was way too expensive for what it is and compares unfavourably to the LRT systems in other cities. Can't change it now but hopefully in future Winnipeg will re-consider building other lines as LRT. I don't have high hopes though.

Well if we compare it to LRT systems it’s actually a much better bang for its buck in terms of $/km, and phase 2 came under budget. It also has better frequency than most LRTs in North America. At its worst it has 12 minute frequencies from Chancellor Station to DT and at its best it’s 5 minutes. Also, it was usually full when I rode it back when I was in Uni.

At this point Winnipeg should go all in on BRT and finish the Blue line extension to Polo Park, add a BRT on Route 90 from the Airport to U of M, and get the crosstown rose line going from Charleswood/Tuxedo via Grant/Pem/Donald/Higgins/Nairn/Regent. They also should get that North/South Orange Line Main/St. Mary’s from St Vital to Kildonan Park going. Of course all with dedicated lanes on the street median to serve as a road diet as well. There’s no reason Portage and Main should be 8 lanes each.

[zalf]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Whoa really? That's honestly surprising, thanks for sharing. They got from Google? Or what was the source?

Because their "road clicker traffic volume studies" and even transit ridership tracking won't tell much of anything. They need the exact start-points and end-points of all people's trips, across ALL transport methods. Only Google has that. That's the only way to properly design a system (and a roadway too).

I have no special internal knowledge of the project, but I went to a public engagement thing for the Transit Master Plan back in 2019. I was talking to one of the engineers on the project and he said they bought exactly the location and journey data you're talking about from Google (possibly Apple, too - memories are hazy). He mentioned that dataset was central to the system redesign, and it also revealed travel and ridership patterns Transit was previous unaware of.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by zalf

I was talking to one of the engineers on the project and he said they bought exactly the location and journey data you're talking about from Google (possibly Apple, too - memories are hazy). He mentioned it also revealed travel and ridership patterns Transit was previous unaware of.

Ohh if they got both Google and Apple data then they definitely have the full picture. That's a MASSIVE dataset. Nothing beats it. And absolutely it would reveal unknown patterns. It's basically the God's Eye of traffic. Thanks for sharing that.