Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Luisito

This is the same arguments Americans use when trying to down play the crime in their cities. "oh statistically your chances of getting shot are low". And nothing gets done.

Sorry folks but WInnipeg has problem, a serious problem. Pretending it's not bad isn't helping anyone. The media is not making things up or the problem. Sweeping things under the rug isn't helping anyone. WInnipeg has a homicide rate three times higher than the Canadian average and is about the same as the US average maybe slightly higher.

We need to change the lax attitude towards violence and drugs. Things are only getting worse. If the recent killing of the young girl in the middle of the day downtown and the killing of the Ukranian refugee isn't a call to action I don't know what is. Yes kids need more intervention and prevention programs, thats fine but the rest of us have a right to feel safe too. I am not suburban either. I am in the mix of things everyday.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with several of your assertions.

Being a victim of crime is always frustrating and sometimes tragic. Our preconceptions of "fairness" are often shattered when one realizes there is probably no restitution that makes us feel like justice has been done. It can lead us to to make some pretty sweeping generalizations, such as "nothing gets done".

However, I think claiming "nothing gets done" is extremely misleading. The police are doing what they can, but police can't be everywhere all at once. The courts can't make up laws on their own, they have to work within the legal system as it is written by governments. Addictions treatment centres have successes, but there simply aren't enough of them to handle the demand. I suspect that, unless one works within any of these systems, we get a realistic idea of how much they limit crime and drug problems in the city.

I also disagree that, except for possibly a small minority, the public at large is "pretending" the problem isn't bad. I do think there is an unfortunate tendency to just focus on own own little corner of the universe and ignore or dismiss problems elsewhere. Crime and drug use are seen as serious issues, but are often dismissed as "someone else's problem" until one or the other hits home, especially if dealing with those issues comes at a cost in tax dollars.

I also don't see a "lax attitude" towards violence and drugs. Even the most jaded person will probably admit that violence and drugs are a societal problem.

I agree that "the rest of us have a right to feel safe too". Dealing with drugs and associated violence/crime is a difficult issue because it's not juts a "crime" issue, a "health" issue or a "greed" issue, it's a blend of multiple causes, all in different proportions for those involved.

Ultimately, one has to decide what makes them "feel safe". For some it's barricading themselves in their homes, protected by alarm systems and weapons. Others prefer to looks at a broader context, and try to evaluate any threats to themselves in terms of what is more or less likely to happen, based on how we choose to behave.

There's no guarantees of anything in this world (except death and taxes I guess) so we may never end up feeling perfectly safe, but I don't think thats' ever been the case in the history of humanity.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with several of your assertions.

Being a victim of crime is always frustrating and sometimes tragic. Our preconceptions of "fairness" are often shattered when one realizes there is probably no restitution that makes us feel like justice has been done. It can lead us to to make some pretty sweeping generalizations, such as "nothing gets done".

Is that what you would say to the wife and kids of the Ukranian immigrant that was recently murdered?

However, I think claiming "nothing gets done" is extremely misleading. The police are doing what they can, but police can't be everywhere all at once.

Talk about misleading. Statistics don't back up your claim. The fact remains things have gotten worse not better. I agree the cops do what they can. I support police 100%. I wish they had more resource and support from the community instead of constantly being bashed.

The courts can't make up laws on their own, they have to work within the legal system as it is written by governments. Addictions treatment centres have successes, but there simply aren't enough of them to handle the demand. I suspect that, unless one works within any of these systems, we get a realistic idea of how much they limit crime and drug problems in the city.

You don't have to work withtin the system to realize things are not working. You talk about making sweeping generalizations, well not everything is related to drugs. Though they are clearly a problem. You talk about generalizations yet had no problem people insutling CFS workers when some of them actually do great work and go up and beyond the call of duty to help children. It is a thankless job. I know several that have been assaulted and accused of things they didn't do.

I also disagree that, except for possibly a small minority, the public at large is "pretending" the problem isn't bad.

You just had several people on here do that. LOL

I do think there is an unfortunate tendency to just focus on own own little corner of the universe and ignore or dismiss problems elsewhere. Crime and drug use are seen as serious issues, but are often dismissed as "someone else's problem" until one or the other hits home, especially if dealing with those issues comes at a cost in tax dollars.

Well you would think more WInnipegers would have learned by now that yes we are actually worse off then other Canadian cities when it comes to crime. I will repeat our homicide rate is three times higher than the Canadian average.

I also don't see a "lax attitude" towards violence and drugs. Even the most jaded person will probably admit that violence and drugs are a societal problem.

Yet we have people, even politicians talking about defunding the police. You yourself said our police do all they can. It would be great if they had more tools and even changed laws if neccesary. Tougher sentencing perhaps?? We have seen criminals get pretty light sentencing. The argument is people have suffered in the past so lets take it easy on them. To deny this lax attitude is ridiculous. Even the mention of getting tougher on crime triggers people. There are many many examples of serious criminals getting out, beating the system. In many cases repeat offenders. How can you deny this?

I agree that "the rest of us have a right to feel safe too". Dealing with drugs and associated violence/crime is a difficult issue because it's not juts a "crime" issue, a "health" issue or a "greed" issue, it's a blend of multiple causes, all in different proportions for those involved.

Yes that why along with social programs we also need to get tougher on crime. This needs to be addressed from many different angles.

Ultimately, one has to decide what makes them "feel safe". For some it's barricading themselves in their homes, protected by alarm systems and weapons. Others prefer to looks at a broader context, and try to evaluate any threats to themselves in terms of what is more or less likely to happen, based on how we choose to behave.

We should be able to live as safely as other people in other Candian cities.There is no excuse for whats going or for accepting things are the way they are in Winnipeg.

There's no guarantees of anything in this world (except death and taxes I guess) so we may never end up feeling perfectly safe, but I don't think thats' ever been the case in the history of humanity.

In other words just accept things are the way in Winnipeg. Defeatist attiude.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

T
The mayor notes the driver shortage presents the biggest roadblock to expanding and improving service.
By late November, Winnipeg Transit had hired 130 new drivers in 2023 but still fell 109 short of a full complement. At that point, Transit had about 890 active drivers. About 160 to 170 more operators would be needed to provide a full, pre-pandemic service level.

So, despite hiring 130 new operators, Winnipeg Transit is now short more operators than they were before. They have to find a way to hire mostly people that will stay, and find ways to keep the people they hire. Part of their new collective bargaining agreement calls for a committee to be struck made up of both management and operators to find ways to fix the problem. Good luck! Management blames it purely on the competitive job market rather than admit they are the problem.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Luisito

In other words just accept things are the way in Winnipeg. Defeatist attiude.

Obviously you are very concerned about crime and drug issues in town, and that's great. However, characterizing other views as uncaring or dismissive of the issue is worse than inaccurate, it's terribly unfair. I believe most people who read and post here want to see a better Winnipeg. However, some of us don't see the benefit of making sweeping generalizations about there being no efforts to curb crime as particularly helpful.

Since this thread is intended to be about transit, man i suggest moving these comments to the Crime thread?

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by pspeid

So there's only two ways of looking at crime issues; either "the sky is falling" or "blind indifference"? Sorry, but I still think one can approach the issues seriously without resorting to broad, unhelpful generalizations.

Then maybe take your own advice and start by addressing the people blaming CFS for the crime problems. Otherwise everything you're saying about generalizations is pure hypocrisy. I am sure for the family of the ukranian man that was killed recently the sky probably does feel like its falling.

Speaking of generalizations, I'd love to hear your solution, since apparently no-one else is as canny as yourself in recognizing that crime and drugs are an issue in the city.

Never said I was the only one and I pretty much already said what I think is the best way to tackle this.

However It would probably be better to switch this, um, "conversation", to the Ranting about Winnipeg Crime" thread. this one is, or was, for talking about Transit.

You said you had me ignore before. Maybe try doing so again as you seem like putting words in my mouth like your ridiculous comments about genocide before.

[cllew]

Interesting factoid relating to people not paying on Winnipeg Transit

Transportation for London lost approximately $228 Million dollars (CDN) in 2022/2023 due to fare evasion.

Unlike Winnipeg where nothing is done to enforce paying to ride TFL has 450 +/- revenue inspectors and does prosecute people found evading to pay.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Then maybe take your own advice and start by addressing the people blaming CFS for the crime problems. Otherwise everything you're saying about generalizations is pure hypocrisy. I am sure for the family of the ukranian man that was killed recently the sky probably does feel like its falling.

Never said I was the only one and I pretty much already said what I think is the best way to tackle this.


You said you had me ignore before. Maybe try doing so again as you seem like putting words in my mouth like your ridiculous comments about genocide before.

*sigh* Okay, I'm done with this conversation. I really don't need to ingest this type of poison into my system, and I doubt that any further arguments on my part will make much of an impression.

I will just say this, however. I can see you're angry and frustrated. That's fine, there's certainly cause for it in this world. But effectively shouting down another person's talking points isn't "winning" the argument. Neither is the apparent attempt to claim some sort of moral superiority by repeatedly invoking the tragedy of the Ukrainian immigrant's murder. "Gotcha" moments prove no point, other than demonstrate the need of the speaker to feel they have dominated the conversation.

What's sad is that you do have some valid points to make about crime in the city. Unfortunately, for me, they get lost in what comes across to me as venom and self-righteous posturing.

SO, if it makes you feel good today, I've leaving this particular battlefield. My mind hasn't been changed by anything you've said, but I'm assuming, but the nature of your comments, that was never your intention.

One last attempt at a learning moment. That comment from several months ago about "genocide" was called "hyperbole". It's defined as an "exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally". It's like saying the Bombers really "killed" their opponents. Few people, if any, will assume they actually murdered the other team, unless they want to use it as a way of trying to attack the character of the speaker.

[Luisito]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by pspeid

*sigh* Okay, I'm done with this conversation. I really don't need to ingest this type of poison into my system, and I doubt that any further arguments on my part will make much of an impression.

I will just say this, however. I can see you're angry and frustrated. That's fine, there's certainly cause for it in this world. But effectively shouting down another person's talking points isn't "winning" the argument. Neither is the apparent attempt to claim some sort of moral superiority by repeatedly invoking the tragedy of the Ukrainian immigrant's murder. "Gotcha" moments prove no point, other than demonstrate the need of the speaker to feel they have dominated the conversation.

What's sad is that you do have some valid points to make about crime in the city. Unfortunately, for me, they get lost in what comes across to me as venom and self-righteous posturing

.

Everything you accuse me of you are guilty of doing yourself. Go back and it was was you that had an issue with my comment. Self righteous postering is exactly what you and other like you do on here. You put the victimizers before the victims.

SO, if it makes you feel good today, I've leaving this particular battlefield. My mind hasn't been changed by anything you've said, but I'm assuming, but the nature of your comments, that was never your intention.

One last attempt at a learning moment. That comment from several months ago about "genocide" was called "hyperbole". It's defined as an "exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally". It's like saying the Bombers really "killed" their opponents. Few people, if any, will assume they actually murdered the other team, unless they want to use it as a way of trying to attack the character of the speaker.

Talk about poison. Your comment about genodice was you exactly what your accusing me of on here. You didn't like my comment so you brought that up. It wsa totally out of ine and ridiculous. Again you complain about sweeping generalizations yet you don't challenge them when you agree with them like some of the comments by others on here.

[FactaNV]

The Free Press has been running a very extensive and imo, well written series on Winnipeg Transit and it's future. Have you guys been reading? Any thoughts on what's being said? I for one bloody hate how financially constrained we are, the TMP infrastructure needed to start 5 years ago, not in 20 years.

[audie]

17k riders per day would put the Blue line at around 10% of the entire system ridership. People clearly want this kind of service, it's so frustrating how slowly it's being expanded. The entire price tag for the TMP was estimated at something like 1.1 billion (pre-pandemic mind you), that would be some of the smartest money the city could possibly spend in order to prepare for future growth.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by cllew

Interesting factoid relating to people not paying on Winnipeg Transit

Transportation for London lost approximately $228 Million dollars (CDN) in 2022/2023 due to fare evasion.

Unlike Winnipeg where nothing is done to enforce paying to ride TFL has 450 +/- revenue inspectors and does prosecute people found evading to pay.

This got buried in arguments. Interesting fact. If they can levy fines I imagine they're peace/bylaw officers?

[audie]

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/why-the-...nsit-1.5535768

Interesting article from the CBC archive. Truly there is nothing new under the sun

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

This got buried in arguments. Interesting fact. If they can levy fines I imagine they're peace/bylaw officers?

I'm not versed on the exact legalities of these positions, but the TFL and its Parisian equivalent transit officers are exclusively used in their transit systems. They clearly have ticketing power, and they'll often be positioned at metro station exits and catch those jumping the exit turnstiles. I assume this helps offset non-payment for transit and would cover their salaries.

I've found turnstile jumping to be more common than I would have ever expected in Europe, even in busy rush times, in well-off neighbourhoods, and by those that don't outwardly appear to be in poor financial situations.

But some here think that fare evasion is a uniquely Winnipeg problem.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

This got buried in arguments. Interesting fact. If they can levy fines I imagine they're peace/bylaw officers?

We would probably do the same in Canada using a person with a special constable status.

An article from Dec 2023 I was reading today is saying that Transportation For London is trying AI to identify repeat fare evaders as some locations.

It also mentioned that TFL is short about 200 fare enforcement inspectors. Just think of it they would have if fully staffed they would have 550 +/- (currently 370 +/- inspectors).

It appears that TFL takes fare evasion very seriously compared to Winnipeg Transit.

I also just noticed that there are law firms that specialize in representing people charged with evasion.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by cllew

We would probably do the same in Canada using a person with a special constable status.

An article from Dec 2023 I was reading today is saying that Transportation For London is trying AI to identify repeat fare evaders as some locations.

It also mentioned that TFL is short about 200 fare enforcement inspectors. Just think of it they would have if fully staffed they would have 550 +/- (currently 370 +/- inspectors).

It appears that TFL takes fare evasion very seriously compared to Winnipeg Transit.

I also just noticed that there are law firms that specialize in representing people charged with evasion.

I suspect the financial case is overblown. Many fare evaders here would not, in a world with actual enforcement, be fare-paying customers. Think about who you've seen getting on and refusing to pay. Typically not people who would with proper enforcement be paying full fare.

I think the real unspoken benefit of fare evasion enforcement is keeping petty criminals off the bus.

[Luisito]

Seems rather short sighted of the Mayor to be so closed off to LRT, I it good to see a councillor keeping the idea alive.

Winnipeg councillor wants the city to consider light rail in its transit plan

https://globalnews.ca/news/10204274/...-transit-plan/

Mayor Scott Gillingham told 680 CJOB that he isn’t looking at the transportation option. For him, the city’s push for the ongoing transit masterplan is a better way of changing the system to serve residents.

“I’m not looking at LRT. I think what’s important to point out is when it comes to LRT, we do have this transit masterplan that will be transformative citywide,” said Gillingham. “I don’t want to lose focus. I’m focused on implementing the transit master plan and our councillors as w

ell.”

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Seems rather short sighted of the Mayor to be so closed off to LRT, I it good to see a councillor keeping the idea alive.


https://globalnews.ca/news/10204274/...-transit-plan/

ell.”

I disagree. I think we just need to start actioning some of these plans rather than going back to study and re-study every little detail. It seems like that's the way it's been for a long time now with Transit, where a plan is presented, costed out, then we don't hear about it for a while, then a councillor brings it up 5 years later but with some modification so it has to be re-studied. All of a sudden a whole generation has passed and nothing of note has been accomplished.

As much as LRT is better, we can't afford it in the foreseeable future and I think that the Mayor's comments reflect that timeframe. I didn't get the impression that he's closed off to all possibilities for a longer time horizon, just that the transit masterplan has to be implemented first and foremost, and it will have the biggest bang-for-buck improvements for Winnipeg's system. LRT is big thinking and would be ideal but we're not there yet with Transit.

I know Winnipeg is behind on major transit infrastructure, but as we see with the Blue Line, it only impacts like 15-25% of the network's routes. Another BRT/LRT line for a billion to Transcona would add what, another 10-20% of the city's bus routes being positively impacted? I would rather spend that billion on a city-wide route revamp that's been designed to optimize everything.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by WildCake

I disagree. I think we just need to start actioning some of these plans rather than going back to study and re-study every little detail. It seems like that's the way it's been for a long time now with Transit, where a plan is presented, costed out, then we don't hear about it for a while, then a councillor brings it up 5 years later but with some modification so it has to be re-studied. All of a sudden a whole generation has passed and nothing of note has been accomplished.

As much as LRT is better, we can't afford it in the foreseeable future and I think that the Mayor's comments reflect that timeframe. I didn't get the impression that he's closed off to all possibilities for a longer time horizon, just that the transit masterplan has to be implemented first and foremost, and it will have the biggest bang-for-buck improvements for Winnipeg's system. LRT is big thinking and would be ideal but we're not there yet with Transit.

I know Winnipeg is behind on major transit infrastructure, but as we see with the Blue Line, it only impacts like 15-25% of the network's routes. Another BRT/LRT line for a billion to Transcona would add what, another 10-20% of the city's bus routes being positively impacted? I would rather spend that billion on a city-wide route revamp that's been designed to optimize everything.

How long is it going to take to finish the entire BRT plan though? What will our population be in a quarter century when we will be even further behind now and costs will be even higher to build better RT?

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by Luisito

How long is it going to take to finish the entire BRT plan though? What will our population be in a quarter century when we will be even further behind now and costs will be even higher to build better RT?

The city is flat broke. We couldn't build an LRT if we wanted to. The CBC published an article about it today. We need to take the cheaper option to get something which has been designed to be converted into and LRT later. Perfect is the enemy of the good and the clock is ticking on federal transit money. I expect that to be cut early in the next gov.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

The city is flat broke. We couldn't build an LRT if we wanted to. The CBC published an article about it today. We need to take the cheaper option to get something which has been designed to be converted into and LRT later. Perfect is the enemy of the good and the clock is ticking on federal transit money. I expect that to be cut early in the next gov.

SO we won't even be able to finish the BRT plan?