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  #12281  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2023, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
I agree with the money, that seems to be the real issue. I'm skepitcal how ever that putting LRT on downtown (Main and portage)streets would move just as fast. Congestion can get bad downtown now and it's probably going to get worse in the near future.

As far as the population being too small, that is debatable, but a good transit system should be built thinking about the city 30-50(if not more) years down the road, not just the size of the city now.
Portage and Main are 40m ROW. One could easily give them dedicated lanes on the median or 1 side of the street, use curb protection, and transit priority signalling to achieve similar results.

Hell if you really want them to stay at a decent speed, one could remove the vehicle access from the smaller streets like Lombard, Assiniboine, and Kennedy to name a few so lights won’t be necessary on those intersections in the first place.
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  #12282  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2023, 10:28 PM
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The one thing I will never understand about people in the this city when it comes to this topic is the focus and obsession with transit being rapid. The primary purpose of this type of transit is to get people out of their cars. As such, our focus should be on MASS transit....to be transporting as many people as possible in a system.....by getting people out of their cars. The RAPID part is a secondary, not primary, focus of building these types of MASS systems.

IMO, this thread should be labelled as Winnipeg City Transit/MASS Transit

Last edited by Justanothermember; Dec 1, 2023 at 11:01 PM.
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  #12283  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2023, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Justanothermember View Post
The one thing I will never understand about people in the this city when it comes to this topic is the focus and obsession with transit being rapid. This primary purpose of this type of transit is to get people out of their cars. As such, our focus should be on MASS transit....to be transporting as many people as possible in a system.....by getting people out of their cars. The RAPID part is a secondary, not primary, focus of building these types of systems.

IMO, this thread should be labelled as Winnipeg City Transit/MASS Transit
Good luck with that. First of all a slow moving at grade tram can't really be mass transit. Secondly, if taking public transit is much slower than my car than why i give it up? The rapid part should also be the focus. There is no way that should be secondary, specially if you want to get people out of cars.
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  #12284  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2023, 10:58 PM
Justanothermember Justanothermember is offline
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Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
Good luck with that. First of all a slow moving at grade tram can't really be mass transit. Secondly, if taking public transit is much slower than my car than why i give it up? The rapid part should also be the focus. There is no way that should be secondary, specially if you want to get people out of cars.
Sorry, I have yet to meet a single solitary person who takes transit for its 'rapidity', be it bus or rail. People take transit because it offers an alternative to driving and the hassles associated of operating a motor vehicle. Do people who e-scooter, bike or walk to work do so because it's more 'rapid'? No, they do it as an alternative to the hassles of driving with the added bonus of exercise in return. Saving money is also a factor
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  #12285  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 1:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Justanothermember View Post
Sorry, I have yet to meet a single solitary person who takes transit for its 'rapidity', be it bus or rail.
Yeah because I mean, rapid rail transit is such an option here in Winnipeg. Too many lines to choose from.


Quote:
People take transit because it offers an alternative to driving and the hassles associated of operating a motor vehicle. Do people who e-scooter, bike or walk to work do so because it's more 'rapid'? No, they do it as an alternative to the hassles of driving with the added bonus of exercise in return. Saving money is also a factor
The vast majority of people using public transit use it because that is their only option, students, working class people etc etc. It's not an "alternative" for most people. Not everyone lives close to work to ride a scoorter there. Some people have already opted out of using a car. For the rest of us, If you really want to get the masses onto transit you need to provide reliable and fast transit, an actual alternative to cars.
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  #12286  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 7:19 AM
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I'm not going to quote Luisto because heshe f'ed up the quotes

I was once a student myself, without a car, and I was more concerned about the reliability of the bus and how 'fast' it was. If it's reliable, then it goes without saying that getting from point a to point b in a reasonable amount of time is implied. I was also a student with a car, and chose not to drive because a) it was reliable (implying that I arrived at my destination in a reasonable amount of time, and b) it was heaps cheaper and less of a hassle than driving. I couldn't care less if it gets me to my destination 5 minutes quicker. And I can tell you than most people I know chose transit for exactly those reasons, not because it shaves a few minutes off your travel time. That's just nonsensical, and no different than people freaking out about opening up P&M to pedestrians because it will take them 2 extra minutes in their commute to work.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As a compromise, I would rename this thread Winnipeg City Transit/ Mass Rapid Transit
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  #12287  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Justanothermember View Post
I'm not going to quote Luisto because heshe f'ed up the quotes

I was once a student myself, without a car, and I was more concerned about the reliability of the bus and how 'fast' it was. If it's reliable, then it goes without saying that getting from point a to point b in a reasonable amount of time is implied. I was also a student with a car, and chose not to drive because a) it was reliable (implying that I arrived at my destination in a reasonable amount of time, and b) it was heaps cheaper and less of a hassle than driving. I couldn't care less if it gets me to my destination 5 minutes quicker. And I can tell you than most people I know chose transit for exactly those reasons, not because it shaves a few minutes off your travel time. That's just nonsensical, and no different than people freaking out about opening up P&M to pedestrians because it will take them 2 extra minutes in their commute to work.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As a compromise, I would rename this thread Winnipeg City Transit/ Mass Rapid Transit
It's not about saving time, its about providing actual alternative, there is a reason it is called rapid transit which is what Winnipeg needs. What are you even advocating for? You seem to be ok with current bus system.
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  #12288  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Justanothermember View Post
I'm not going to quote Luisto because heshe f'ed up the quotes

I was once a student myself, without a car, and I was more concerned about the reliability of the bus and how 'fast' it was. If it's reliable, then it goes without saying that getting from point a to point b in a reasonable amount of time is implied. I was also a student with a car, and chose not to drive because a) it was reliable (implying that I arrived at my destination in a reasonable amount of time, and b) it was heaps cheaper and less of a hassle than driving. I couldn't care less if it gets me to my destination 5 minutes quicker. And I can tell you than most people I know chose transit for exactly those reasons, not because it shaves a few minutes off your travel time. That's just nonsensical, and no different than people freaking out about opening up P&M to pedestrians because it will take them 2 extra minutes in their commute to work.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As a compromise, I would rename this thread Winnipeg City Transit/ Mass Rapid Transit
Sounds like you found a great spot as a student to really leverage a frequent bus route to uni from your home. I would certainly bus in to work daily if I had a direct bus that only cost 2-5 mins of extra time and the usual challenges of public transport. Definitely agree with it being much less of a hassle than driving.

Unfortunately in Winnipeg and most of North America, most destinations are not just a 2, 5, or even 10 min difference. I work an irregular schedule with most my in-person commutes happen off-peak times so I would typically have to wait much longer for a bus, for a transfer, and repeat on the way home. The scenario you describe as a student represents just a small fraction of the city's transit network, where time savings over driving are in the single digits.

If I walk out the door and go to the nearest bus stop and the bus is right there when I arrive, I can get to work in 45-55 mins depending on transfer time. It takes me a about 20-25 mins driving. And we all know that the 45-55 mins is if the stars align and there is actually a bus that shows up or isn't late, or didn't roll by 5 mins early. The odd time I do end up bussing, I have to bank on leaving for work 1h15 to 1h30 early in case something goes wrong with Transit, whereas I can reliabily leave for work 30 mins before I need to be there when driving. Just the time saving for me is worth the hassle and increased cost of car .ownership.
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  #12289  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 9:49 PM
cslusarc cslusarc is offline
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I was considering going out tomorrow for my 1st post-COVID trip on a Sunday. . When I looked at the Sunday schedule for route 11 I noticed that all buses from Glenway go to St. Charles, all buses via Donwood go to Westwood and all buses via Rothesay go to Crestview. On Sundays each North Kildonan branch has an typical headway of 48 minutes giving a combined headway of 16 minutes between Henderson @ Edison and City Hall. I thought half the 11s were supposed to serve the Glenway branch like they did pre-COVID.
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  #12290  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2023, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cslusarc View Post
I was considering going out tomorrow for my 1st post-COVID trip on a Sunday. . When I looked at the Sunday schedule for route 11 I noticed that all buses from Glenway go to St. Charles, all buses via Donwood go to Westwood and all buses via Rothesay go to Crestview. On Sundays each North Kildonan branch has an typical headway of 48 minutes giving a combined headway of 16 minutes between Henderson @ Edison and City Hall. I thought half the 11s were supposed to serve the Glenway branch like they did pre-COVID.
You face the added challenge right now that your bus could be cancelled due to ATU's overtime ban.
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  #12291  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2023, 12:58 AM
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You face the added challenge right now that your bus could be cancelled due to ATU's overtime ban.
I do hope the City will give its Transit drivers a fair wage increase given the post-COVID labour market dynamics.
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  #12292  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2023, 2:24 AM
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I do hope the City will give its Transit drivers a fair wage increase given the post-COVID labour market dynamics.
Not just drivers, the face of Winnipeg Transit. All employees. New tentative agreement reached. We'll see if it's good enough for members to ratify. Better yet, if it's enough to retain employees which is Transit's biggest hurdle.
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  #12293  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 3:58 PM
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Not just drivers, the face of Winnipeg Transit. All employees. New tentative agreement reached. We'll see if it's good enough for members to ratify. Better yet, if it's enough to retain employees which is Transit's biggest hurdle.
Is WPG Transit still doing the social experiment of allowing anyone to ride for free which essentially turned the whole service into a free for all shit show?
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  #12294  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 10:30 PM
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Is WPG Transit still doing the social experiment of allowing anyone to ride for free which essentially turned the whole service into a free for all shit show?
Of course.
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  #12295  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2023, 11:28 PM
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I hope folks are reading the series on Transit this week in the Free Press, it has been excellent so far. Here's a good place to start: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...iving-mr-mayor
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  #12296  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2023, 2:41 AM
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I hope folks are reading the series on Transit this week in the Free Press, it has been excellent so far. Here's a good place to start: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...iving-mr-mayor
Text from above article:

Driving Mr. Mayor
From the back of the bus, from rider complaints, from the unfilled driver jobs, Scott Gillingham sees the problems with Transit
In Transit
By: Joyanne Pursaga
Posted: 3:00 AM CST Wednesday, Dec. 27, 2023
Last Modified: 8:55 AM CST Wednesday, Dec. 27, 2023 Updates

Mayor Scott Gillingham climbs aboard the No. 11 bus at Polo Park around 8 a.m. to begin his commute to city hall.

After paying with his Winnipeg Transit Peggo card, he settles into the second last row of what, at this point, is a near-empty bus.
Even from his perch, the mayor is always the mayor. As the bus slowly fills up with passengers on its way downtown along Portage Avenue, Gillingham is taking stock of what’s happening both inside and outside.

“I can check out the bus shelters, what’s happening, ones that are damaged, ones that have people sleeping (in them),” says Gillingham, joined by a Free Press reporter for a commute in early December.
This bus trip is not simply a photo-op. The mayor tries to take Transit at least twice a month. It allows him to gauge how the service is running and helps guide policy decisions, he says.

Winnipeg Transit has an identity problem. High-profile incidents of violence and stories about service disruptions have shaped the public’s view. But the perception is not always a reflection of the everyday reality.

A few rows back from a code-of-conduct notice posted inside the bus, the mayor notes his rides have been largely uneventful.

“Often, we talk about incidents of aggression… But I think it’s important to point out that every day, thousands and thousands of Winnipeggers are using Transit without incident,” he says.
During the 40-minute ride with frequent stops — this wasn’t the express route to city hall — no one is spotted failing to pay a fare, acting aggressively or otherwise disrupting fellow riders. Most passengers keep quiet, with some appearing to fall asleep, or at least close their eyes.

Of course, delays and safety threats can disrupt some rides, with violence and missed buses triggering headlines over the past several years. There were 104 reported assaults against bus drivers in 2022, according to Winnipeg Transit. That marked the highest number since 2000, the earliest year for which data is available.

Another 91 assaults were reported in 2023, as of Oct. 13.

The Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1505, which represents Winnipeg Transit drivers, has said the number is even higher when other security threats are included. ATU reported 208 Transit security incidents as of mid-October, up from 130 throughout 2022, once all types of assault are factored in: attempted assault, verbal threats, steering wheel grabs, shield punches, spitting, attempted robbery, theft, property damage, open liquor, drinks being poured on drivers and use of bear repellent spray.

Meanwhile, a persistent driver shortage has resulted in an increase of service disruption throughout the fall.

That needs to be addressed, Gillingham said, as transit is an essential service for many who have no choice but to rely on buses.

“For a lot of people, it’s the only means of transportation,” he says.
During a post-ride interview in his office, Gillingham says his vision to modernize bus service largely hinges on ensuring changes in the Winnipeg Transit Master Plan are implemented as soon as possible.

The plan, which was approved by council in April 2021, will redraw nearly all existing bus routes, create a network of six rapid transit corridors, and add electric buses to the fleet over the next two decades.

“I think the Transit Master Plan aims to address some of the barriers for people that prevent them from riding a bus. We need our system to be more frequent and more reliable and those are (at) the heart of the changes that will be made in the implementation of the Transit Master Plan. Traditionally, Winnipeg has been an auto-centric city and there are people right now who perhaps don’t even consider transit an option for them. It doesn’t cross their mind to even consider using transit. But, by my own experience, once I used transit and, in my case, discovered the convenience of it, I (was) more likely to use it,” he says.
Gillingham says a critical piece is a route overhaul that’s currently expected to take effect in June 2025. The new system is slated to introduce a new primary network that will increase the frequency on many routes. A tiered system should see a bus arrive at least every 10 minutes during rush hour and at least every 15 minutes during the rest of the day on top-tier routes.

The mayor notes the driver shortage presents the biggest roadblock to expanding and improving service.
By late November, Winnipeg Transit had hired 130 new drivers in 2023 but still fell 109 short of a full complement. At that point, Transit had about 890 active drivers. About 160 to 170 more operators would be needed to provide a full, pre-pandemic service level.

During the 2022 election campaign, Gillingham promised to ensure full service was restored this year but he blames the unfilled positions for keeping that pledge from becoming a reality. Currently, there’s no target date to resume full service.

“We need to be able to recruit and retain Transit operators so we can deliver transit service at 100 per cent of service levels. And, also, we need transit operators so we can effectively deploy the Transit Master Plan,” he said.

He noted that waiting will also be required on additional campaign pledges to add 11 net new buses each year to the busiest routes from 2024 to 2026 and on-demand suburban service, which had been expected to start with Castlebury Meadows-Waterford Green in the city’s northwest quadrant in late 2023.
“What we want to be able to do is, when a new community is established, as soon as possible, get transit service into those communities, so that the people living in those areas see transit as an option for them. It’s key to reducing our greenhouse-gas (emissions), it’s key to having fewer vehicles on the road. So, delivering transit into new residential areas is an important priority … (But) we don’t have enough operators right now to (even) deliver the current service at 100 per cent service levels,” Gillingham said.

The city is taking safety concerns seriously, pointing to the new team of community safety officers who will be devoted to buses and bus stops, which he expects will help retain and attract drivers, he said. The safety officers are expected to begin working in February.

Gillingham’s election platform also called for Transit to test new security measures at major bus stops, such as enhanced lighting and emergency call buttons. He hopes the community safety team can help determine which options would work best and where they are most needed.

While Transit has also heard complaints about passengers who fail to pay their fares, Gillingham says the initial focus of the new safety team won’t be on collecting payment.

“At this point, the focus of the community safety officers is to make sure that the bus is a safe place to be … (and) I don’t want to see our transit operators get into conflict or an adversarial situation where they’re trying to enforce bus fares.

“We want our operators to be safe. So, let’s focus, first of all, at getting the community safety officer team onto our buses, improving the system, making the system safer and I would like to see, too, if there’s a corresponding impact that sees a reduction in fare evasion just by those officers being present.”

joyanne.pursaga@freepress.mb.ca

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  #12297  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2023, 2:59 PM
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IMO the most important part of this article:

“Often, we talk about incidents of aggression… But I think it’s important to point out that every day, thousands and thousands of Winnipeggers are using Transit without incident,” he says.
During the 40-minute ride with frequent stops — this wasn’t the express route to city hall — no one is spotted failing to pay a fare, acting aggressively or otherwise disrupting fellow riders. Most passengers keep quiet, with some appearing to fall asleep, or at least close their eyes."

I would like to see reporters put their data into proper perspective. When reporting the number of aggressive incidents within a time period, also mention the number of bus trips run that day. For example, 104 assaults out of 1000 routes driven, or whatever it is.

I'm also interested in what constitutes an "assault'? Is it always violent physical contact, or is a shove or name-calling an "assault"? I'm not trying to down-play any violence against driver, but I would like some clarification. Does anyone know how "assault" is defined in this case?

And, for the record, I am not condoning any kind of verbal or physical abuse of anyone on a bus, at a bus stop, or anywhere. I would just like to have an accurate idea of the scope of the problem without "the sky is falling" hysteria OR blasé dismissal.
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  #12298  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2023, 4:00 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is offline
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Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
IMO the most important part of this article:

“Often, we talk about incidents of aggression… But I think it’s important to point out that every day, thousands and thousands of Winnipeggers are using Transit without incident,” he says.
During the 40-minute ride with frequent stops — this wasn’t the express route to city hall — no one is spotted failing to pay a fare, acting aggressively or otherwise disrupting fellow riders. Most passengers keep quiet, with some appearing to fall asleep, or at least close their eyes."

I would like to see reporters put their data into proper perspective. When reporting the number of aggressive incidents within a time period, also mention the number of bus trips run that day. For example, 104 assaults out of 1000 routes driven, or whatever it is.

I'm also interested in what constitutes an "assault'? Is it always violent physical contact, or is a shove or name-calling an "assault"? I'm not trying to down-play any violence against driver, but I would like some clarification. Does anyone know how "assault" is defined in this case?

And, for the record, I am not condoning any kind of verbal or physical abuse of anyone on a bus, at a bus stop, or anywhere. I would just like to have an accurate idea of the scope of the problem without "the sky is falling" hysteria OR blasé dismissal.
This is the same thing that happens when there are one or two stories about violence at the Forks and then all the hysterical older suburban people claim the Forks "isn't safe". There are 4 million visits to the Forks per year. 99.99% of those visits occur without incident. Statistically you're much safer there than you are driving on the roads every day. The media is really irresponsible with how they report this stuff, but you know "if it bleeds, it leads."
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  #12299  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2023, 4:36 PM
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This is the same thing that happens when there are one or two stories about violence at the Forks and then all the hysterical older suburban people claim the Forks "isn't safe". There are 4 million visits to the Forks per year. 99.99% of those visits occur without incident. Statistically you're much safer there than you are driving on the roads every day. The media is really irresponsible with how they report this stuff, but you know "if it bleeds, it leads."
This is the same arguments Americans use when trying to down play the crime in their cities. "oh statistically your chances of getting shot are low". And nothing gets done.

Sorry folks but WInnipeg has problem, a serious problem. Pretending it's not bad isn't helping anyone. The media is not making things up or the problem. Sweeping things under the rug isn't helping anyone. WInnipeg has a homicide rate three times higher than the Canadian average and is about the same as the US average maybe slightly higher.

We need to change the lax attitude towards violence and drugs. Things are only getting worse. If the recent killing of the young girl in the middle of the day downtown and the killing of the Ukranian refugee isn't a call to action I don't know what is. Yes kids need more intervention and prevention programs, thats fine but the rest of us have a right to feel safe too. I am not suburban either. I am in the mix of things everyday.
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  #12300  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2023, 5:43 PM
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We need to change the lax attitude towards violence and drugs. Things are only getting worse. If the recent killing of the young girl in the middle of the day downtown and the killing of the Ukranian refugee isn't a call to action I don't know what is. Yes kids need more intervention and prevention programs, thats fine but the rest of us have a right to feel safe too. I am not suburban either. I am in the mix of things everyday.
Yeah but that young girl didn't get killed because of a "lax attitude towards violence and drugs", she got killed because she didn't have the proper supports and that left her vulnerable, on the streets with the wrong crowd.

This is exactly why it's important to distinguish between perceptions and the actual circumstances of crime. Most of us are not usually at high risk, whether we are downtown or wherever, but we think about these incidents as threats to their own safety when 95% of the time they are not. Actual victims are usually not people who were "in the wrong place at the wrong time", they are people who were vulnerable because of homelessness, poverty, mental illness, addiction. If we act on perceptions instead of the actual causes then we won't accomplish anything.

Same case for that guy who got killed in the library. The takeaway for most people was "library not safe". When again that guy didn't get killed because he happened to be in the library, he was targeted because he was homeless and ran into the library to try to get away. The real risk factor was not going to the library, it was being homeless.
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