Saskatoon Construction III

[WoodlandCritter]

[QUOTE=Arts;8299166].

As much as I think paper books are only a couple generations away from complete obsolescence, I do think public libraries will be an important place for learning, disseminating and understanding published information - I'm just not sure in which form. I think the concept of libraries are well suited to small lecture halls, quiet study areas, small meeting rooms, digital interface with internet for individuals and groups etc. I think there is also opportunities to incorporate more science and tech (offering access to lab equipment for public use, technology to build/create/innovate such as makerspaces etc).

QUOTE]

As per my previous post. Take a look at the link.


I will disagree on the coming obsolete nature of paper books though

[Arts]

[QUOTE=WoodlandCritter;8299190]

Originally Posted by Arts

.

As much as I think paper books are only a couple generations away from complete obsolescence, I do think public libraries will be an important place for learning, disseminating and understanding published information - I'm just not sure in which form. I think the concept of libraries are well suited to small lecture halls, quiet study areas, small meeting rooms, digital interface with internet for individuals and groups etc. I think there is also opportunities to incorporate more science and tech (offering access to lab equipment for public use, technology to build/create/innovate such as makerspaces etc).

QUOTE]

As per my previous post. Take a look at the link.


I will disagree on the coming obsolete nature of paper books though

Just did, and I think it's closer to what all public/civic libraries of the future will offer. The place will be just as important as ever, the architecture will have a major influence on the reason people go to the place, and libraries will always be libraries even if there are barely any paper books. As to the future of those paper books, our grandkids will tell us how it is in a few decades.

[roryn1]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Not sure how books, which are made from a natural renewable resource, is unsustainable. Its extremely shortsighted to think we should move all knowledge to digital formats, especially when all it takes is one solar flare, like what happened in the 1800s, or a nuclear war, which we are closer to more than ever today, to completely wipe out all the digital information we have stored (books outside the blast zone can withstand the more widespread EMP). Less people may be reading nowadays but it has more to do with other distractions (i.e. video games, television, etc.) than it has to do with better access to digital content. Once people realize that sharing knowledge and reading is more important than ever in a service-based economy, reading will make a come back. And like this millennial, and many other people I know, from my girlfriend, to her father, to the people who use the many "corner libraries" that exist throughout our cities, there will always be a large segment of the population who prefers paper books. Remember, not everyone is like you or roryn1.

That’s fine that not everyone is like me - but as a taxpayer that owns a condo two blocks from the current downtown library I can see 60 Million going to better use - and a lot of people if not more agree with me, hence the shape of the current library. I’ve been there once and a fancy building with phone plugins and a coffee shop will not incentivize me nor my friends who are still students to hang out there when a library at the university (that’s also open to anyone) has areas that are busy to deafening quiet to read with a Starbucks - all 5 minutes away.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by roryn1

That’s fine that not everyone is like me - but as a taxpayer that owns a condo two blocks from the current downtown library I can see 60 Million going to better use - and a lot of people if not more agree with me, hence the shape of the current library. I’ve been there once and a fancy building with phone plugins and a coffee shop will not incentivize me nor my friends who are still students to hang out there when a library at the university (that’s also open to anyone) has areas that are busy to deafening quiet to read with a Starbucks - all 5 minutes away.

Careful extrapolating the "shape of the current library" into the future to justify that nothing can change from how it is today so nothing should be done.

"I observe 'x' to be in current condition 'y', therefore I conclude that it will always be in condition 'y', so nothing should be done." -- People use this to argue against bike lanes, BRT, or improving the pedestrian experience on Idylwyld.

I think what many of us are saying is that the current central library is not living up to its potential, and a new one can better fulfill its role in a changing society. There is no crisis of usage at the library (you seem to ignore that the stats support that the library is well-used, despite your anecdotal observations to the contrary, and your one visit to it), but there definitely is a crisis of the library increasingly not being able to meet the needs and expectations of its modern day users. Hence the very sensible decision of our civic leadership to (finally) take a look at: what a new library could look like, what it might be able to offer to the community, and yes, what it might cost. I think the $60M figure has only been bandied about by you so far.

[Jimmy James]

Originally Posted by roryn1

That’s fine that not everyone is like me - but as a taxpayer that owns a condo two blocks from the current downtown library I can see 60 Million going to better use - and a lot of people if not more agree with me, hence the shape of the current library. I’ve been there once and a fancy building with phone plugins and a coffee shop will not incentivize me nor my friends who are still students to hang out there when a library at the university (that’s also open to anyone) has areas that are busy to deafening quiet to read with a Starbucks - all 5 minutes away.

As a taxpayer who lives in Stonebridge and has two children, one in high school, and who knows several other families with teenage children, I can't see much better use of $60 million. Not on roads, not on garbage pick up, and certainly not on a downtown arena.

I think you need to pay more attention to people outside of your circle of friends. My teenage daughter and her friends, who all have tablets, phones and Internet access anytime they want it, all make weekly trips to the library downtown. They get books, DVDs and CDs. All of them prefer to read paper books over using their mobile devices. Demand for paper copies of books, not to mention other services offered at the library, is not going down, as Echoes noted.

Central libraries are important to the communities they serve. There is a reason Winnipeg, Halifax and Seattle constructed new libraries. There is a reason Calgary is doing the same. They serve multiple segments of the community and offer services few others do, like free access to computers and the Internet.

I'm puzzled by your comparison of the Frances Morrison Library to those at the university. They serve very different audiences. The university libraries are academic - they simply don't carry many of the popular books that a regular library does. Nor are they family friendly - there wasn't much selection for children or teens there, the last I checked. I can't see many of the people who I run into at the Frances Morrison feeling comfortable in the Murray Building, searching amongst the journals for the latest New York Times bestseller.

This is all reminding me of the backlash from the recent Mourdoukoutas opinion piece in Forbes. Echoes, djforsberg and WoodlandCritter have made some excellent arguments for why public libraries are still essential in 2018.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Not sure how books, which are made from a natural renewable resource, is unsustainable. Its extremely shortsighted to think we should move all knowledge to digital formats, especially when all it takes is one solar flare, like what happened in the 1800s, or a nuclear war, which we are closer to more than ever today, to completely wipe out all the digital information we have stored (books outside the blast zone can withstand the more widespread EMP). Less people may be reading nowadays but it has more to do with other distractions (i.e. video games, television, etc.) than it has to do with better access to digital content. Once people realize that sharing knowledge and reading is more important than ever in a service-based economy, reading will make a come back. And like this millennial, and many other people I know, from my girlfriend, to her father, to the people who use the many "corner libraries" that exist throughout our cities, there will always be a large segment of the population who prefers paper books. Remember, not everyone is like you or roryn1.

I didn't mean ecologically unsustainable (though as someone that used to live on Vancouver island and seen firsthand the sheer scale of footprint left behind by the paper industry I'm not easily convinced that traditional wood-paper should be considered renewable, but hemp or other crops may be a good solution to that).

I meant as a cost effective means of sharing information. They are heavy (requiring special considerations in the building code to accommodate the dead load), take up a huge amount of size for the amount of data contained within, will become cost prohibitive as less demand will decrease the economies of scale for printers and publishers, are not easily revised when needed, present a bit of a health hazard in that they can promote growth of mold and must and can harbour infestation of pests, and for archival purposes worst of all they may not even be the longest-lived form of physical archival - if that is the goal then microfilm is a better choice than paper.

For more than a decade already, digital is the primary/original form for almost all data, with printable hardcopies being available for those that want pages to flip. This means large scale printing doesn't really make sense any more, we are at the cusp where it will be cheaper to print one-offs of a textbook (either from an online print shop or from home even) for those that want one than it would for a publishing company to print off small runs, and distribute them to businesses that have to hold on to inventory for hopefully less time than it takes for the next revision to be printed. Meanwhile devices will get better and better and new readers that didn't grow up with shelves full of paper books will be more accustomed to the new medium.

I do agree with you completely that sharing knowledge and reading is due for a comeback from all the modern high tech distractions, just think (as one of the last gen x'ers) that the practice will be not be done in permanent ink.

[casper]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

No, they are not. Not even close. You might want to get out of your bubble.



To suggest someone has to have an e-reader to access books is asinine. I have a Kindle and only use it when it is not practical to have a physical book. You also seem to forget that there's a large segment of the population who can't afford the things that you obviously take for granted.

Universities are for higher learning. To suggest impoverished teens, for example, should go to the university to access the resources they previously did at the public library is ridiculous. I went to university and it was intimidating enough for myself. I don't think universities want to just open the doors to the public when they are already underfunded.

I hate to be snarky but you come across as extremely ignorant, especially when two posters already addressed the above points of yours.

The University has a research library. It is geared around having material (books, journals etc.) around the academic departments it supports. A community library is going to be focused on searching the needs to a much larger population. You will probably find a book on the most obscure type of microbe at the University library but not the "Watch spot run..." boot for a 5 year old.

I think libraries today provide a venue for people to access material but also meeting rooms for community groups and a central library should provide an auditorium for talks etc. Kids going to the library to have someone read a story to them is about the interaction as much as the book.

Vancouver has a great library. The base/lobby area has a number of for profit stalls that help subsidy the operation.

[roryn1]

In the last few posts defunct CD’s, defunct DVD’s, driving teenagers driving from their suburb (which already has a library) to downtown’s library to hang (I don’t know a single teenager who’s gone to a library when their school has one), and many more silly remarks about how going to a library is a social gathering (when reading books is best done by yourself lol) were made with no clear explanation to what a university, countless convention space available, lower cost suburban libraries can’t replace in a $60 M (will definitely not be less than $60M comparing Saskatoon to Halifax and inflation) cost of concrete. Too much duplication in this old school way of thinking all for a fancy building. Very interesting to see people trying to make a social justification for a library when those funds could lift quite a few out of poverty. Thanks for the discussion.

[casper]

Originally Posted by roryn1

In the last few posts defunct CD’s, defunct DVD’s, driving teenagers driving from their suburb (which already has a library) to downtown’s library to hang (I don’t know a single teenager who’s gone to a library when their school has one), and many more silly remarks about how going to a library is a social gathering (when reading books is best done by yourself lol) were made with no clear explanation to what a university, countless convention space available, lower cost suburban libraries can’t replace in a $60 M (will definitely not be less than $60M comparing Saskatoon to Halifax and inflation) cost of concrete. Too much duplication in this old school way of thinking all for a fancy building. Very interesting to see people trying to make a social justification for a library when those funds could lift quite a few out of poverty. Thanks for the discussion.

Here is the guide to the program in Saskatoon: https://saskatoonlibrary.ca/sites/de...2018_Web_1.pdf

The programs that provide basic education, ESL, resume writing, how to use a computer etc. are all programs that help lift people out out of poverty.

Some of the other kids oriented program that help get kids engaged in readying, science, technology etc. are also important.

[roryn1]

Originally Posted by casper

Here is the guide to the program in Saskatoon: https://saskatoonlibrary.ca/sites/de...2018_Web_1.pdf

The programs that provide basic education, ESL, resume writing, how to use a computer etc. are all programs that help lift people out out of poverty.

Some of the other kids oriented program that help get kids engaged in readying, science, technology etc. are also important.

All things that can be googled. Computers aren’t hard to use anymore - My workplace is currently switching from laptops to tablets haha. For fact, more money could go into these programs if people aren’t capable of using the free Duolingo app or googling a resume template without a multi multi million dollar building.

Kenny the Clown doesn’t need to perform in a 40-60 Million dollar venue unfortunately. My childhood wooden and stucco library branch was worth maybe $200,000 - same programs offered - didn’t care about the cost of building as a kid haha.

[Echoes]

Man, I can fully respect your position that you have misgivings about significant capital dollars going into a major new publicly-owned facility, and I can even respect your uncertainty about the ongoing relevance of the institution itself. But when several posters have spent a lot of time explaining why they feel that libraries still have real value and are relevant in the modern day (and even back it up), and you dismiss it all as being a performance space for "Kenny the Clown", it's as if you didn't read a single thing that folks had to say today.

This is the last post that I'll offer on the topic. Thanks for the robust debate everyone.

[roryn1]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Man, I can fully respect your position that you have misgivings about significant capital dollars going into a major new publicly-owned facility, and I can even respect your uncertainty about the ongoing relevance of the institution itself. But when several posters have spent a lot of time explaining why they feel that libraries still have real value and are relevant in the modern day (and even back it up), and you dismiss it all as being a performance space for "Kenny the Clown", it's as if you didn't read a single thing that folks had to say today.

This is the last post that I'll offer on the topic. Thanks for the robust debate everyone.

You have me mistaken - I read through the entire programming booklet and read all of the comments and have had this opposition to spending so much on a library for a very long time. None of this programming needs to be in a $40-60 Million dollar building. Spending those dollars on expanding the chikdren’s Museum would go to far greater use.

The biggest new spending the city is doing this year is expanding the city dump. We don’t have money to throw around like Calgary. Halifax mainly did theirs because unemployment is 13% there and people are begging for any work. A $100 Million dollar art gallery attracts a lot of people to stay in the city and to come visit. So far I see nothing this library would do that a wooden stucco building under a Million $ couldn’t offer.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Same here. When I went through campus last night I was admiring the legacy of great buildings there. The Spinks Addition next door is about 15 years old and looking great.

However, in future I wouldn't mind if the university pursued some high quality modern architecture. There are numerous campuses around the world that feature a complementary mix of contemporary and traditional design. The U of S plays it safer with these sorts of hybrid designs for new builds, which has worked out well, but I wouldn't mind some cutting edge stuff.

I agree that I would like to see the University attempt something new when it comes to hybrid designs. I definitely appreciate their adherence to the sandstone finishing that is the trademark of the school, but I think new buildings can look a lot more appealing than just "sandstone on the bottom, glass on the top", which is how most new buildings look. They shouldn't be afraid to take things in a different direction.

I'm thinking of the proposed College of Agriculture building from a few years ago. Maybe not that exactly, but the University shouldn't be afraid of more eye-catching architecture (so long as they keep the sandstone, that is).

[Crisis]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I'm thinking of the proposed College of Agriculture building from a few years ago. Maybe not that exactly, but the University shouldn't be afraid of more eye-catching architecture (so long as they keep the sandstone, that is).

The linked story is to the proposed School of Architecture, which would reside off-campus at the old John Deer building in the north downtown warehouse district.

I agree with you, however, that there could be a little more variety in the new building designs as most of the new buildings do seem to follow a very similar tyndalstone, fieldstone and glass theme. I'm just hoping that they continue to stick to the overall program and avoid blunders (IMO) like the Arts Tower and Vet Med. Even the NRC and Engineering buildings, though fine buildings in their own right, don't really fit in with the rest of the campus facilities.

[prairieguy]

i have read with interest and the lively debate over the library. If we are going to offer anecdotal references to the debate, I can offer that on 2 visits to Halifax their library was a destination point to visit! Both times that I went to the facility, it was absolutely full of people. I cannot speak to how they were using the facility, but it was definitely a community gathering place.

I also find it interesting that I seldom to never visit our library, yet made two purposeful visits to the Halifax one....the building, atmosphere and vibe and amenities were definite draws.

Just saying.....

[prairieguy]

To get us moved off Library.....exciting to see construction happening at Wanuskewin Park. I am really hopeful that they will be successful in their Unesco bid!

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...ding-expansion

I would say though, that I feel the new design still misses the mark to be an engaging and interactive site....it comes across a bit more like a 'static' gallery of displays. In its early days, the site use to have a motion activated hall that as you walked through you would hear the buffalo pounding from above with a bison leaping off a cliff above you, as you moved through the all various displays would come to life with sound. Of course, technology is so much more advanced now that the opportunity for truly interactive and motion displays is limitless. I really don't see the Park capturing a childs imagination or a family's interest as much as it could....more potential....

[Temperance]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

To get us moved off Library.....exciting to see construction happening at Wanuskewin Park. I am really hopeful that they will be successful in their Unesco bid!

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...ding-expansion

I would say though, that I feel the new design still misses the mark to be an engaging and interactive site....it comes across a bit more like a 'static' gallery of displays. In its early days, the site use to have a motion activated hall that as you walked through you would hear the buffalo pounding from above with a bison leaping off a cliff above you, as you moved through the all various displays would come to life with sound. Of course, technology is so much more advanced now that the opportunity for truly interactive and motion displays is limitless. I really don't see the Park capturing a childs imagination or a family's interest as much as it could....more potential....

This is great news. Saskatoon will have at least two world class attractions when this is done (Remai Modern and Wanuskewin). Agree with you on the exhibit design, at least as presented in the videos. It looks a bit passive.

By the way there are 3 flyover/walkthrough videos now up on the Wanuskewin site: https://wanuskewin.com/our-story/new...-design-plans/

[justabusinessstudent]

Hi all! Been reading these forums for a while now and just recently decided to create an account. An absolute complete change of topic, but does anyone have any info as to the construction/development of any of the Cannabis Retail stores?

Very interested in it business and development wise.

Cheers!

[Temperance]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

i have read with interest and the lively debate over the library. If we are going to offer anecdotal references to the debate, I can offer that on 2 visits to Halifax their library was a destination point to visit! Both times that I went to the facility, it was absolutely full of people. I cannot speak to how they were using the facility, but it was definitely a community gathering place.

I also find it interesting that I seldom to never visit our library, yet made two purposeful visits to the Halifax one....the building, atmosphere and vibe and amenities were definite draws.

Just saying.....

I agree. I lived in Amsterdam until recently - it has a great library which is very popular with locals and visitors alike. I saw the exact same library debate play out in the Ottawa thread. I think the problem is that people are too fixated on the medium (books) rather than the broader purposes of libraries.

Books are still important but libraries today are about much more than books. They are community education centres and gathering places. Perhaps the only fully public institutions that anyone can access and benefit directly from. The Amsterdam library has books but it also provides places for people to read newspapers, use the internet, attend public lectures, or even go to a restaurant. Saskatoon could benefit greatly from such a library, which ideally would increase the quality of life of Saskatoon residents, improve literacy/reduce inequality (it is often immigrants and uneducated people who benefit most from libraries and they may not have good internet access at home), and even provide city services.

My fear is not the money spent on a potential library but that we will go cheap and build something that is not as useful as it could be.

[Jimmy James]

Originally Posted by roryn1

In the last few posts defunct CD’s, defunct DVD’s,

Defunct? Right. That's why people keep using them.

You mentioned something about elitism earlier?

Originally Posted by roryn1

driving teenagers driving from their suburb (which already has a library)

We can't all be as perfect as you with your downtown condo. My daughters go to the Stonebridge, branch, as well, but it's small and has a rather limited selection.

Originally Posted by roryn1

to downtown’s library to hang (I don’t know a single teenager who’s gone to a library when their school has one)

Well, you must have your finger on the pulse of what is happening with teenagers. How old are your children? What experience are you basing this on?

Originally Posted by roryn1

and many more silly remarks about how going to a library is a social gathering (when reading books is best done by yourself lol)

Your condo must be on a high floor. I bet it helps to look down on us silly people.

Originally Posted by roryn1

Too much duplication in this old school way of thinking all for a fancy building.

Yep. That's all it is. A fancy building.

It must be nice to be able to ignore all the logical points about how much the central library is actually being used, who it is built for, why it is needed for people who don't have access to resources like the Internet and can't buy books whenever they please.

Originally Posted by roryn1

Very interesting to see people trying to make a social justification for a library when those funds could lift quite a few out of poverty. Thanks for the discussion.

Interesting you bring this up. Your motivations are purely altruistic, apparently. I guess that's also why you're behind spending $300 million of taxpayer money on a new downtown arena.

Nevermind the role public libraries play in providing those in poverty with resources to further their education, to search and apply for jobs, and to meet with with support or community groups.

Well, consider me enlightened. Now, I don't expect you to go back and address all the relevant points people made or to correct your obvious factual mistakes. I'm sure you have much better things to do. One suggestion, however: go back to that university you keep touting and take a couple philosophy classes. Your ability to reason and form coherent counterarguments is lacking, to be kind.