Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The young, professional members of the current crop that I've met are arriving already assimilated. Still Indian, but totally comfortable in Canadian society.

If they're "still Indian", then they're not assimilated. Perhaps "integrated" is the more accurate term.

Again, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's not really the same.

Of course, it's almost been a policy goal of the Canadian government for immigrants to not assimilate, or at least not too much.

So perhaps we should not be surprised.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

More like "they wanted to go to the US, but the US didn't let them in." If we're being honest.

I'm not willing to cast my blanket statement that large, no, as I'm no expert on that.

I'm an avid hiker/cyclist in my local parks (national and otherwise) and have seen increasingly heavy use of them by what I'd guess are recent immigrants (SE NB until recently has been largely Caucasians speaking English/French). It's actually quite charming to see them pile out of minivans and, while clearly somewhat out of their element, they appear genuinely enthralled. I'd say appreciation can grow. It's fun watching someone experience something beautiful for the first time.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If they're "still Indian", then they're not assimilated. Perhaps "integrated" is the more accurate term.

Again, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's not really the same.

Of course, it's almost been a policy goal of the Canadian government for immigrants to not assimilate, or at least not too much.

So perhaps we should not be surprised.

Yes, integrated.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The French right wing leader Jean-Marie Le Pen seems to be an exception to the French rule of not capitalizing in the middle of surnames.

Though I am sure New Brisavoine will have a savant explanation for this.

There is no savant explanation. The rule is quite simple and I'm surprised you don't know it. Family names (as well as given names) start with a capital letter. When the family name is made up of two different and detached words, they both start with a capital letter. Capital letters never appear in the middle of words. That's the basic rules of typography since the invention of the press in the 15th century. It's no different in English, except bizarrely for French names in the US (and apparently also in Acadia).

As for whether the determinant le/la is attached to the rest of the name or not, it is purely random, based on how the name was recorded in the 19th century when the spelling was fixated. Before the 19th century, people wrote these names both with and without a space, and sometimes with no determinant at all.

In Brittany in general it is customary to leave a space (hence Le Gall, Le Goff, Le Roux, Le Pen, etc, which are typical breton names... Le Goff in Breton means Lefebvre in French, i.e. Mr Smith).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I'm not willing to cast my blanket statement that large, no.

It is quite true of a number of immigrants to Canada, but certainly not all of them.

People disgusted with American foreign policy (and its impact on their home countries) and politics in general often choose to move to Canada instead of the US.

I've known many many immigrants to Canada for whom this is the case.

(There is a lot of anti-American sentiment out there in the world. In some cases anti-Americans still move to the US. But many prefer to go to other countries like Canada, Australia, or Europe. There is also a lot of anti-French sentiment in former French colonies, and I've stopped counting the number of friends and acquaintances I have who came to Quebec instead of France for this reason. Or who started their lives abroad in France and then eventually settled here.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There is no savant explanation. The rule is quite simple and I'm surprised you don't know it. Family names (as well as given names) start with a capital letter. When the family name is made up of two different and detached words, they both start with a capital letter. Capital letters never appear in the middle of words. That's the basic rules of typography since the invention of the press in the 15th century. It's no different in English, except bizarrely for French names in the US (and apparently also in Acadia).

As for whether the determinant le/la is attached to the rest of the name or not, it is purely random, based on how the name was recorded in the 19th century when the spelling was fixated. Before the 19th century, people wrote these names both with and without a space, and sometimes with no determinant at all.

In Brittany in general it is customary to leave a space (hence Le Gall, Le Roux, Le Pen, etc, which are typical breton name... Le Gall in Breton means Lefebvre in French, i.e. Mr Smith).

This is the savant explanation I was alluding to. (I did so myself but you deleted it.)

[New Brisavoine]

Not exactly what some have been describing here...

https://www.ledevoir.com/economie/829948/rares-logements-sont-devenus-inabordables-quebec?

[New Brisavoine]

French television tonight calling Poilièvre an "ultra-conservateur, proche de Donald Trump, connu pour ses outrances, capable de dire tout et son contraire".

You guys confirm?

PS: I've also heard "Canadian politics is finally becoming interesting" today.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French television tonight calling Poilièvre an "ultra-conservateur, proche de Donald Trump, connu pour ses outrances, capable de dire tout et son contraire". ������

You guys confirm?

PS: I've also heard "Canadian politics is finally becoming interesting" today.

"Proche de Trump" seems like an exaggeration.

He's pushed back on the 51st state talk from Trump.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/poilievre-to-trump-canada-will-never-be-the-51st-state-1.7153798

Overall, Trump probably has no idea who he is.

Though they will likely get along well once he is PM.

[New Brisavoine]

I think they meant "proche des positionnements de Trump", not close to him personally.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think they meant "proche des positionnements de Trump", not close to him personally.

I don't think there is any analog for DJT in Canadian politics. Even the premier of Alberta (who might be the closest) would be to the left of him.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Proche de Trump" seems like an exaggeration.

He's pushed back on the 51st state talk from Trump.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/poilievre-to-trump-canada-will-never-be-the-51st-state-1.7153798

Overall, Trump probably has no idea who he is.

Though they will likely get along well once he is PM.

My original read (and I’m betting, the correct one ) was the same as NB’s, i.e. close to being similar to Trump, and not close personal buddy of Trump.

And to NB, yes, agree with all of that, it’s all quite accurate.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Nashe

I don't think there is any analog for DJT in Canadian politics. Even the premier of Alberta (who might be the closest) would be to the left of him.

Originally Posted by lio45

yes, agree with all of that, it’s all quite accurate.

Agree to disagree?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Agree to disagree?

Lio was unplugged from the hive mind, give us a moment.

[New Brisavoine]

By the way, for the language nerds: how do you pronounce "Poilièvre" in Québec? And do you write the accent or not?

PS: Jesus! This guy was born in 1979?? He looks 10-15 years older than his age!!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

By the way, for the language nerds: how do you pronounce "Poilièvre" in Québec? And do you write the accent or not?

PS: Jesus! This guy was born in 1979?? He looks 10-15 years older than his age!!

No accent in English nor in French, but pronounced as if it had the accent. The first "i" seems to be omitted by some English speakers.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

No accent in English nor in French, but pronounced as if it had the accent. The first "i" seems to be omitted by some English speakers.

Wikipedia says the English pronunciation is not like French "lièvre". The i is pronounced like English "ee", whereas in French the i in lièvre (hare) is not a vowel, but the semi-vowel spelled "y" in English (as in yacht). Moreover, English speakers apparently do not pronounce the final "-re".

So my question stands. How is it pronounced in Québec by French media? Do they pronounce "paw - lee - ev" like the Anglophones, or "poids - lièvre" as it should be in French?

[New Brisavoine]

Ok so I've listened to various videos from Francophone media of Québec, and all of them do pronounce the final -re (which the Anglophones don't), probably because the name is too close to the word lièvre not to pronounce the final -re, most also pronounced the "i" in "lièvre" as a semi-vowel and not the full "ee" English vowel (except one guy, MP Joël Godin, who pronounced it like English "ee"), but half of them seem to say "Polièvre", under English influence I suppose, while another half say "Poilièvre". For example the mayor of Montréal (at 0:25) definitely says Po- and not Poi-.

• Video Link

On the other hand this journalist clearly says Poi- :

• Video Link

So, the jury is out on how to pronounce his name in French it seems.

In France it will be fully pronounced Poids - lièvre, I'm sure.

As a matter of fact (at 1:09). Notice how the "Poi" is very neatly pronounced, and the final -re is also much more forceful than in those Québéc videos above.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Always the French way with some slight occasional variations.

If a Francophone pronounced it the English it would be jokingly, to mock him.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, I wasn’t talking about natural beauty. I meant food and culture.

I am familiar with Muskoka, Kawarthas, etc., and while there is a huge amount of wealth there (huge lake houses, fancy boats) it’s surprising how “rough” things are in terms of culture (in the broad sense, which includes food).

Oh, yeah I didn't realize you were talking about food & culture and that sort of sphere. In that case, you are absolutely right and I agree. Ontario's backcountry is much rougher and more spartan in terms of amenities.