Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[drew]

Originally Posted by Hecate

If we had an above ground sewer system I could see your point, but we don’t. This all comes down to neglect and incompetence.

I made sure I put "this type" before infrastructure. A public access corridor running below busy downtown streets is obviously not the same as underground pipes and the like.

The underground tunnels are "nice to have" not "need to have". And in this case we cannot afford such "nice to have" kind of things - as we are finding out.

[drew]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

40+ year old roof membrane leaking underground aww u guys sure its not just cause its old has nothing to do with soil conditions all roofs leak as they age

cant be that hard to do it they built it in the 70's with out ripping the whole street up so i dunno why we cant do that now

also hearing simlar number to decomsion vs repair hows that even make sens

The water table is creeping up. And I would be dollars to donuts these type of membranes have a longer functional life in say Los Angeles versus Winnipeg.

So yes, it has reached the end of it's useful life - however that doesn't mean we should invest $$ to kick the can down the road another 40 years.

And decommissioning will cost mega dollars because there is a road up there. You need to fill in all voids properly to avoid future settlements or sink holes and the underground structure gradually deteriorates.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by drew

I made sure I put "this type" before infrastructure. A public access corridor running below busy downtown streets is obviously not the same as underground pipes and the like.

The underground tunnels are "nice to have" not "need to have". And in this case we cannot afford such "nice to have" kind of things - as we are finding out.

If they can build a freaking tunnel under the English Channel that doesn’t leak, they can build one in winnipeg.

There’s lots of infrastructure projects undertaken in manitoba that are useless, that pedestrian bridge over 59 at birds hill park for one, the reliefs on the bridges at the 59 and perimeter overpass, many of which you can’t even see. The unused bridge and ramps at transport Canada way, what a waste that was, if there’s money for that crap then there’s money for P&M. they had no trouble finding another $80 million for the overpriced cop shop too.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Hecate

If they can build a freaking tunnel under the English Channel that doesn’t leak, they can build one in winnipeg.

There’s lots of infrastructure projects undertaken in manitoba that are useless, that pedestrian bridge over 59 at birds hill park for one, the reliefs on the bridges at the 59 and perimeter overpass, many of which you can’t even see. The unused bridge and ramps at transport Canada way, what a waste that was, if there’s money for that crap then there’s money for P&M. they had no trouble finding another $80 million for the overpriced cop shop too.

There's a ton of underground infrastructure that gets put in in Manitoba. I would have a hard time believing that we are unable to actually do this here.

P&M circus station would be unreal on an LRT. Could be one of several important transfer points in the DT area (I know I am a dreamer on this, cut me some slack). I feel that the unbuilt wilson subway is the greatest tease in Winnipeg history. Instead we had to build a stupid drainage ditch (which obviously has never ever even once been useful right?), even if it has saved the city from far greater problems...

[drew]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

There's a ton of underground infrastructure that gets put in in Manitoba. I would have a hard time believing that we are unable to actually do this here.

Who said we couldn't do it? I am just arguing we are finding out we cannot afford to maintain or possibly even decommission an underground concourse extending below city streets in Winnipeg.

[Authentic_City]

Anything is possible with unlimited money. But saving the underground circus at Portage and Main doesn't seem worth it. We can pay once to decommission it and reopen the intersection to pedestrians. Or, we can pay now and then again in the future to repair and maintain it going forward. Repairing it seems like a senseless never ending cycle of expenses that doesn't make sense if we just reopen the intersection to pedestrians, like all other intersections in the city.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Anything is possible with unlimited money. But saving the underground circus at Portage and Main doesn't seem worth it. We can pay once to decommission it and reopen the intersection to pedestrians. Or, we can pay now and then again in the future to repair and maintain it going forward. Repairing it seems like a senseless never ending cycle of expenses that doesn't make sense if we just reopen the intersection to pedestrians, like all other intersections in the city.

I don't think the city should have to pay, but I do think that if the businesses on the corners of the street want to maintain the connectivity, something will get done. Either they will build skywalks or pay to repair the concourse. I could see a scenario where the city offloads the circus by transferring that asset to the property owners on the 4 corners and then letting them take care of maintaining it. Something along those lines. If they want it badly enough, they'll cough up the dough.

Everyone wins.

Who owns the skywalks currently?

[Authentic_City]

Skywalks are a mixture of ownership. A few sections are publicly owned (I think the bridge to the Millennium Library, for example) but most are privately owned (in some cases with ownership split between property owners. Read an article a few years ago about the complicated ownership of the network.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Honestly this is pathetic. We can’t afford to fix the concourse? That relief down there is epic. The ugly ass skywalks are blight on portage avenue, now you want them on main? Everything should be easily accessible tunnels.

I do like the opening of portage and main, but closing the concourse is dumb. All the businesses down there will lose business as a result.

Dumb.

Agreed. Skywalks or, pedways as they are more lovingly called, are ugly. They block sunlight; the view and have an ugly appearance. Underground is much better.

[cheswick]

If I was mayor and wanted portage and main opened, despite a public vote against it, I would blame the cost of maintaining the concourse open, to appease the electorate. Just saying.

[peg]

Originally Posted by cheswick

if i was mayor and wanted portage and main opened, despite a public vote against it, i would blame the cost of maintaining the concourse open, to appease the electorate. Just saying.

^^^ 100%

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by cheswick

If I was mayor and wanted portage and main opened, despite a public vote against it, I would blame the cost of maintaining the concourse open, to appease the electorate. Just saying.

Gillingham had previously come out against opening P & M. If course, he could just be a canny enough politician to know when to keep his cards close to his chest. Hard to tell what the story is here, I'm just glad he made the decision he did.

[morty]

Originally Posted by plrh

I can't wait for the tender. I would kill to see the record drawings now. Does anyone know who the original engineer was?
My rough estimate is $15m to abandon with stabilized fill (without seeing any drawings). The only sewer connection is just a couple of floor drains. The biggest issue is abandoning the accesses. They will probably redesign the surface works for the whole area at the same time, so the bill will go up.

Concourse was designed by Smith Carter IIRC. Can't remember the engineering firm though. Drawings definitely exist, though the City's recordkeeping is... concerning, to put it politely. You may be able to submit a FIPPA request for them.

[cllew]

According to a Dillon consulting report (https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/interhom/...afficStudy.pdf) for the city from 2017 here is where any archived drawings should be found

Municipal Accommodations Branch procured drawings – digitized hard copies of what appears to bet he circa 1976 construction plans for the concourse, as well as 360 Main Street (Winnipeg Square).

They do not appear to be record drawings from after construction, so some changes may have been made during construction. Some CAD files were also present. These drawings were invaluable in determining the structure and foundation of the barrier walls, and the walking paths used in the
pedestrian

• LBIS - CAD files for location of right-of-way, selected City underground utilities such as watermain/sewermain horizontal geometry

• Underground Structures Branch procured record drawings – mainly digitized hard copies of projects constructed in the public right-of-way. This also included a few CAD based drawings of various levels of detail. Note that these drawings generally had no information on the underground concourse or barrier wall construction

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Hecate

If they can build a freaking tunnel under the English Channel that doesn’t leak, they can build one in winnipeg.

Building fresh and refurbing in a constrained area are 2 different ball games. Underground should be avoided at all costs. It's always cheaper to build up, than down.

Originally Posted by drew

So yes, it has reached the end of it's useful life - however that doesn't mean we should invest $$ to kick the can down the road another 40 years.

And decommissioning will cost mega dollars because there is a road up there. You need to fill in all voids properly to avoid future settlements or sink holes and the underground structure gradually deteriorates.

Originally Posted by drew

Who said we couldn't do it? I am just arguing we are finding out we cannot afford to maintain or possibly even decommission an underground concourse extending below city streets in Winnipeg.

Drew's right. First time I agreed with this guy. To further his point, this problem did not occur overnight. It could have been seen a mile away.

All infrastructure in this city needs its useful life amortized in the annual report. The infrastructure deficit NEEDS to be accounted for. END OF STORY.

Until it is, we cannot properly plan or budget civil projects. Financial Roulette. Remember the 7 P's: Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

It's a tricky surgery to stabilize that intersection with all the large skyscraper foundations around it. It sucks. It's expensive. But go ahead and leave it and see how expensive the problem becomes.

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Agreed. Skywalks or, pedways as they are more lovingly called, are ugly. They block sunlight; the view and have an ugly appearance. Underground is much better.

Total nonsense. The Downtown skywalks are amazing. Both in functionality, and symbolism. It's about the only thing this shithole city can pride itself on. Flaunt them, expand them. They're exceptional.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

It's about the only thing this shithole city can pride itself on.

You know what? You are no different than the person you are replying to in this comment. People like you can take a long walk of a short pier. Don't like it? GTFO and stay STFO. I love this city. No city is perfect and we punch high above out weight in many areas. I'm sick of people like you and Oddballs trolling threads bashing the city and citizens. I will always stand up for my city against people such as yourself; you can count on it.

Now with all that said, have a nice day

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

You know what? You are no different than the person you are replying to in this comment. People like you can take a long walk of a short pier. Don't like it? GTFO and stay STFO.

Believe me if I was healthy enough to leave, I'd be as far from this shithole as possible. I'd let you burn the whole thing down. But unfortunately I'm stuck here. So I got interest in it. That means speaking against the underachieving scumbags running this place into the ground.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Believe me if I was healthy enough to leave, I'd be as far from this shithole as possible. I'd let you burn the whole thing down. But unfortunately I'm stuck here. So I got interest in it. That means speaking against the underachieving scumbags running this place into the ground.

Something tells me you would hate the city no matter what state it's in. I think you just feed off that negativity. I actually feel kind of sad for you.

Maybe instead of being such a troll, you can tone down your attitude and be more respectful to the people who post here and actually care about the city. You want to make complaints? Fine, bring on the constructive criticism. I have my fair share regarding the city as well, believe me. What I don't appreciate, however, is people like you coming on here and just trolling. If you have so much anger and hostility in you, then put it to use and go lobby the city for change, figure out what avenues you need to pursue and do something constructive with your time. Coming here and spouting off like a child does you no good and will of course accomplish nothing. I make a difference by volunteering with the homeless and plan on starting to visit elderly people in nursing homes. I want to do something for the areas I personally care about.

Go and make an actual difference instead of just spouting off on an internet forum. You will feel better in the long run having done so.

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Believe me if I was healthy enough to leave, I'd be as far from this shithole as possible. I'd let you burn the whole thing down. But unfortunately I'm stuck here. So I got interest in it. That means speaking against the underachieving scumbags running this place into the ground.

I mean, I was somewhat engaged in the points you were making until you started speaking like a total jerk, and now I can’t really take what you have to say seriously anymore.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Believe me if I was healthy enough to leave, I'd be as far from this shithole as possible. I'd let you burn the whole thing down. But unfortunately I'm stuck here. So I got interest in it. That means speaking against the underachieving scumbags running this place into the ground.

umm its not a shit hole it has issues but far from one. u need to change the way your thinking or u will just be missrible till the day u die please try i know its hard i relize. remember its a city its normal go to nyc. try dealing with them 100 billion dallor budget and they cant get shit done either......


u wana see a shit hole go to leaf rapids sometime that will give u something to rant about. whats happend to northern mb and its utter gutting since the 80's is absolutly disgusting and its no wonder winnipeg has sufferd so badly


u wana help winnipeg look north


Edit:
sorry ur having health issues that make u traped witch makes me think ur on disability witch makes allot more sens
the system for that boils my blood how people get treated as well so ur anger makes allot more sens be loud but find creative wording and make a stink

slumlords that got their foot in the door when the housing market was severly devalued and people not seeing value in these homes created allot of this mess like it costs how much to build a house and yet u think owning it for 25k is stupid drove me up the wall as a kid hearing that over and over about houses in woslely thats dumb ill just rent same in the north end see same thing here in lynn lake houses get abandoned and rents go up up up yet to buy a damn house for 25k when they pop up livable