Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mezzanine]

As mentioned before, the worst part of all of this is that I do support LRT in south fraser, but zwei is going apeshit on his blog about skytrain, and scaring off a lot of other LRT supporters for the interurban.

Debating zwei used to be fun challenge, but i'm starting to feel like we're poking a caged bear with a stick....

EDIT: OTOH, zwei is a zealot when it comes to LRT. If he moves to attack reasoned debate with mindless attacks and complains of the conspiracy of 'the skytrain lobby', then he'll reap what he sows...

[mr.x]

lol, and it just gets worse. from the vancityguy blog:
http://www.vancityguy.com/?p=1234

Regarding that “UBC Skytrain” site, I think you’re wrong - they really are a bunch of amateurs* who came together on SkyscraperPage (see http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167934)

(* I am not completely sure I mean that in the kindest way possible.)

edit: the poster is our very own, newbie biketrouble.

[usog]

Originally Posted by mr.x

lol, and it just gets worse. from the vancityguy blog:
http://www.vancityguy.com/?p=1234







edit: the poster is our very own, newbie biketrouble.

Oh? How did you find that out?

[mr.x]

Clicking on his username in the blog leads to his Twitter: http://twitter.com/MarkAllerton


And his most recent Twitter update was: Spending far too much time challenging the assumptions of the Skytrain fans over at SSP: http://bit.ly/lGGoF

And of course, there's only one guy here [and who is a newbie too] that's debating against SkyTrain.

[usog]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Clicking on his username in the blog leads to his Twitter: http://twitter.com/MarkAllerton


And his most recent Twitter update was: Spending far too much time challenging the assumptions of the Skytrain fans over at SSP: http://bit.ly/lGGoF

And of course, there's only one guy here [and who is a newbie too] that's debating against SkyTrain.

Meh, I noticed that but thought you had something that actually pointed towards his username. =\

[biketrouble]

Yeah, that's me. Actually, it's easy to find out, because I normally link my Twitter account in blog comments, and I have posted on Twitter about my comments here. I'm not really much of a believer in covering my tracks, because I don't have anything to hide.

If you want full name, rank and serial number, my name is Mark Allerton, I was born in London, England sometime in the 1960s and have been living in Vancouver since 2001, and in Kitsilano since 2004. I work as a senior software architect at SAP BusinessObjects (nee Crystal Decisions.)

As for my comment, well, let's just say I don't think your arguments are as strong as you'd like to think they are, but I would be deeply surprised if you were an astroturfing effort on behalf of Bob Rennie or whoever else Vancityguy thinks might benefit from the Skytrain being built.

BTW, I also own biketrouble.com, which is another clue :-)

[Metro-One]

Well to be honest i have never cared to know who you are biketrouble, and I urge everyone here to not make this issue personal. But i do feel you are good at playing politics. If any of us on this forum were working for translink, the BC Liberals, or any other transit supplier or operator you would be using that to your advantage saying we are simply boosting skytrain for our own financial interests (as many have tried to suggest) but now that you have learned that we are actually a diverse group ranging from high school students, university students, married individuals and various professionals ranging all the way up into their 50's you now resort to calling us "amateurs" in a negative sense because you now know we do not work for those listed above. Also, many of us are highly educated (at the university level) in social geography, which includes studying mass transit systems. Not to mention odds are some on here are civil engineers and work for local cities.

This is a great political ploy, the "no win" scenario. And to let you know the pro-skytrain movement has gone far beyond the SSP boundaries. We are now well over 1000 supporters on facebook alone, and I can tell you many of them (if not most) have never even heard of SSP.

[biketrouble]

I think you're making some mistakes here, M1. You're putting words in my mouth, and you're doing it on the basis of assumptions about my motives for which you have no evidence.

Since you bring up politics, it might be a good idea for you to learn to play the game yourself. You are not exactly going to be welcoming the undecided into the fold with this kind of attitude to anyone who questions your beliefs.

[Metro-One]

Regarding that “UBC Skytrain” site, I think you’re wrong - they really are a bunch of amateurs* who came together on SkyscraperPage (see http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167934)

(* I am not completely sure I mean that in the kindest way possible.)

Are those words not from your mouth? We have told you all of our points again and again over the last few days and to me you really do not look to belong to the undecided. people are starting to lose patience answering the same questions. And yes, my assumption is if we were working for those groups you would have twisted that into something you "don't mean in the kindest way possible" as well.

Also don't forget at first you insinuated we were a bunch of UBC students, (suggesting we only care about the terminus).

[biketrouble]

I don't think it's unfair to call this a group of amateurs because I believe it's true to say that most of you do not work in transit, development or politics (and so in this regard my own interest is also on an amateur basis.) Also bear in mind that my comment was actually defending you against an accusation that you were a front for business interests. Don't all thank me at once.

As for the "kindest way possible", you know, if the standard of debate in here were a bit higher, I would not have made that snarky comment. But as it stands, I was accused of being a sockpuppet for the LRT lobby within hours of asking questions in here - which I definitely believe is amateurish in the unkind sense of the word.

The accusation of amateurishness in that sense can I am sure also be leveled at me, I am a sarcastic so-and-so and it often does me no favours. But I'm not the guy who started a political lobbying group. Given your lack of patience with questions, I am not sure lobbying is the right word - bullying might be more appropriate.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who took my questions in good faith, and for those that didn't, that's your loss.

[Metro-One]

You have to learn quickly that sarcasm does not work well on internet forums, seeing how we can not read your tone of voice (and you have made previous comments towards me that did seem rather mean spirited, given without face to face contact i do not know in what context you mean it to be taken). But again i don't want this to get personal, hence why i really don't care who you are away from your computer.

[Whalleyboy]

Okay i gotta random question.
I know we are still running some of the orginal expo cars that came when the skytrain first opened. So there pretty old but i remember reading there only consider about mid life point. Anyways my question is whats the average life of an lrt? I would guess its way less.

If that is the case wouldnt that make another reason skytrain for having and up over an lrt? It would have to add up eventually replacing lrts since they dont last as long.

also was it mentioned anywhere about where the extra cars would be stocked cause i'm pretty sure neither ubc or people along broadway would want a pile of cars sitting around there areas

[jlousa]

Keep the thread civil or I will have to lock it down until everyone behaves. It's okay to disagree but lets not take this to a personal level. Now continue on.

[biketrouble]

M1, thanks for the advice, but I have been on BBs and internet forums since 1988 and I've managed to get by OK.

[deasine]

jlousa has said and there will be no repeats. If this discussion continues to a personal level, I'll pull your plug off. You only have access to this forum because you have been invited here. Should you wish to ignore instructions, you won't manage to get by "ok."

That's to everyone.

[Metro-One]

Okay i gotta random question.
I know we are still running some of the orginal expo cars that came when the skytrain first opened. So there pretty old but i remember reading there only consider about mid life point. Anyways my question is whats the average life of an lrt? I would guess its way less.

If that is the case wouldnt that make another reason skytrain for having and up over an lrt? It would have to add up eventually replacing lrts since they dont last as long.

also was it mentioned anywhere about where the extra cars would be stocked cause i'm pretty sure neither ubc or people along broadway would want a pile of cars sitting around there areas

That is another benefit of using skytrain along Broadway over building a new LRT line, is that with skytrain we can use the existing OMC (OMCs considering one is to built for the Evergreen Line). I am sure the construction and purchasing of land for a new OMC to house and operate an at grade LRT line will add to the cost considerably.

[Whalleyboy]

i kinda figure skytrain would use an omc through the evergreen line

do you have any clue about the life of lrt cause i know skytrains have a long life for rail cars

[biketrouble]

One last thing, before the long weekend.

My advice to this group is that you need to have better projections of the capacity that is going to be required in the Broadway corridor. I asked this question a couple of days back, and the responses I got were along the lines of "I don't have hard numbers but it's obvious this area will grow like crazy." This is not going to be good enough, if you are advocating spending billions of dollars. It should be possible to do some estimates based on the plans the city already has for the corridor. If you can show that the population or the number of jobs in an area is set to expand by (for example) 30% in 10 years then you should be able to extrapolate from current ridership. You could also factor in converting some of the people currently travelling by car. In addition you can factor in some growth that is driven by the expansion of capacity. The important thing here is to have a plausible model that explains why capacity will need to expand, and by how much.

Without numbers like this, it's not all that productive to be debating the finer points of headways and car lengths with the likes of MJ. The thing that I find somewhat ironic is that much of the debate has been centered on a 20K pphpd figure that actually comes from MJ, almost certainly because it's the maximum plausible capacity of an LRT!

..Mark..

[red-paladin]

Presumably trains can be maintained as long as desired, it just depends how expensive it is. For example, I rode the Glasgow Metro, and those trains have to from 1970s. I guess it all depends on what is the cost-benefit analysis. I agree that LRT vehicles might get a lot more damage though.

Anyway, we already talked a lot about the Mark I refit to come. I guess it must be worthwhile to do these things instead of just buying new ones.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by mr.x

lol, and it just gets worse. from the vancityguy blog:
http://www.vancityguy.com/?p=1234

edit: the poster is our very own, newbie biketrouble.

Also on that page...

Actually, most of those Skyscraperpage members are either professionals in the engineering and urban planning industry or are UBC students in geography, transportation, architecture, and urban planning. Hardly “amateurs”.

That one hit pretty much on target.