Should we be renaming places and things in Ottawa-Gatineau?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But I think the difference is that in Quebec and Newfoundland protestants also had schools, so the question was one of everyone (or a large portion of the population) “giving up” their schools. In Ontario, only Catholics have taxpayer funded schools (as the Protestant boards had long been secular), so it is a matter of asking a privileged plurality to give up their schools.

Agreed. I recognize that it's a constitutional and political can of worms. That doesn't mean that's a 100% defensible thing in a society like Ontario or Canada in the 21st century.

We'll see how that works out going forward.

[Truenorth00]

I was annoyed they changed the name from ORP which tells you where the parkway is. I support changing it back.

And there needs to be an agreement with the feds to not change street names in Ottawa without local consultation.

Buildings and parks? Sure. But roads and streets should require consultation with the city.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I realize that.

Full disclosure: we aren't devout Catholics but if I were in Ontario I would probably send my kids to French Catholic school.

I'm an atheist and we do not have any religious traditions in our family, both our kids went to French Catholic Schools by choice, I have no love for the Catholic Church but having a values-based education does have advantages, although it could be argued that there are other factors at play (diversity, socio-economic etc...)
EQAO results clearly demonstrate that you are best off to send your kids to French Catholic Schools
Results:
https://www.eqao.com/report/?id=38

Having choices increases competition and innovation in teaching

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I'm an atheist and we do not have any religious traditions in our family, both our kids went to French Catholic Schools by choice, I have no love for the Catholic Church but having a values-based education does have advantages, although it could be argued that there are other factors at play (diversity, socio-economic etc...)
EQAO results clearly demonstrate that you are best off to send your kids to French Catholic Schools
Results:
https://www.eqao.com/report/?id=38

Having choices increases competition and innovation in teaching

It's no secret that private Catholic schools in Quebec (which are quite affordable by Ontario standards) have a not-insignificant number of Muslim students.

In the absence of an equivalent offering of Muslim private schools of course.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's no secret that private Catholic schools in Quebec (which are quite affordable by Ontario standards) have a not-insignificant number of Muslim students.

In the absence of an equivalent offering of Muslim private schools of course.

Why are there no private Muslim schools in Quebec?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

Why are there no private Muslim schools in Quebec?

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

There are no private Muslim schools in Gatineau that teach a full K-12 curriculum from Monday to Friday.

I believe there is at least one such school in Ottawa. Maybe more.

Gatineau has at least one part-time Muslim school that teaches religion and Arabic to kids on the weekend, like many other communities have.

Of course Montreal has private weekday Muslim schools that teach K-12.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

There are no private Muslim schools in Gatineau that teach a full K-12 curriculum from Monday to Friday.

I believe there is at least one such school in Ottawa. Maybe more.

Gatineau has at least one part-time Muslim school that teaches religion and Arabic to kids on the weekend, like many other communities have.

Of course Montreal has private weekday Muslim schools that teach K-12.

Right, that makes sense. There are at least three in Ottawa I believe. Plus lots of Muslims at the public Catholic schools.

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I'm an atheist and we do not have any religious traditions in our family, both our kids went to French Catholic Schools by choice, I have no love for the Catholic Church but having a values-based education does have advantages, although it could be argued that there are other factors at play (diversity, socio-economic etc...)
EQAO results clearly demonstrate that you are best off to send your kids to French Catholic Schools
Results:
https://www.eqao.com/report/?id=38

Having choices increases competition and innovation in teaching

Respectfully, I'm curious as to why nonreligious parents would desire their children to be educated in any particular religious doctrine (ahem, 'values') in their school. As someone who is also an atheist, educated in the public system, I'm pretty sure public education instills decency in kids just fine, without all the religious baggage.

It goes without saying that having choices means competition. But I'd hestitate to credit Ontario's system of four public school boards with anything but symbolizing an appalling waste. Are educational outcomes in Ontario better than, say, Finland? And if so, is it truly a credit to our parallel English Public/French Public/English Catholic/French Catholic boards? The school bus and administrative overhead in Ontario represents an astounding opportunity cost that could surely be better directed to more efficiently improving innovation and educational outcomes. Merging the Catholic boards into the public ones would handily also teach a lesson in fairness to everyone of Catholic and non-Catholic persuasion.

About the test argument, as you say, there are other explanations for why the French Catholic board can boast higher test scores. Newer Canadians and poorer residents who don't speak French are probably less likely to send their children to second-language schools, whereas upper middle class families who may be bilingual themselves and can better afford to help their children with their schoolwork or pay tutors are likely over-represented in the French boards. That said, if there is something uniquely innovative about the French Catholic board that you have observed, I would be legitimately curious to learn about it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

About the test argument, as you say, there are other explanations for why the French Catholic board can boast higher test scores. Newer Canadians and poorer residents who don't speak French are probably less likely to send their children to second-language schools, whereas upper middle class families who may be bilingual themselves and can better afford to help their children with their schoolwork or pay tutors are likely over-represented in the French boards. That said, if there is something uniquely innovative about the French Catholic board that you have observed, I would be legitimately curious to learn about it.

I think that outside of a few areas with a long-standing francophone community, French schools tend to be for children of Anglo elites or the children of the francophone professional class (immigrants or people who relocated from Quebec to take professional jobs. That, along with schools being fairly small is a recipe for good educational outcomes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

Respectfully, I'm curious as to why nonreligious parents would desire their children to be educated in any particular religious doctrine (ahem, 'values') in their school. As someone who is also an atheist, educated in the public system, I'm pretty sure public education instills decency in kids just fine, without all the religious baggage.
.

Catholic schools in Ontario (English or French) are not particularly doctrinaire. At least, hadn't been for quite some time, until fairly recently as more traditional religiosity has slowly begun to creep back upwards. (Ever so slightly, but still.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

About the test argument, as you say, there are other explanations for why the French Catholic board can boast higher test scores. Newer Canadians and poorer residents who don't speak French are probably less likely to send their children to second-language schools, whereas upper middle class families who may be bilingual themselves and can better afford to help their children with their schoolwork or pay tutors are likely over-represented in the French boards. That said, if there is something uniquely innovative about the French Catholic board that you have observed, I would be legitimately curious to learn about it.

My wife and I, with many friends and relatives both as clients and teachers in the Ontario French system, have long had a theory that there is some fudging going on when it comes to their test results.

Especially when it comes to tested skills in the main language of instruction. In Ontario, pan-Canadian and international testing, kids' reading, writing skills are assessed in the language that learn in. For Franco-Ontarian schools, that language is French. (Whereas for most Ontario students, that test measures English competency.)

I find it extremely hard (actually impossible) to believe that most students in Ontario French schools do as well on *equivalent* tests as francophone kids in France, Switzerland or Belgium. Or even Quebec, which while not perfect, still produces francophone kids with a noticeably higher baseline French proficiency than the other provinces.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My wife and I, with many friends and relatives both as clients and teachers in the Ontario French system, have long had a theory that there is some fudging going on when it comes to their test results.

Especially when it comes to tested skills in the main language of instruction. In Ontario, pan-Canadian and international testing, kids' reading, writing skills in the language that learn in. For Franco-Ontarian schools, that language is French. (Whereas for most Ontario students, that test measures English competency.)

I find it extremely hard (actually impossible) to believe that most students in Ontario French schools do as well on *equivalent* tests as francophone kids in France, Switzerland or Belgium. Or even Quebec, which while not perfect, still produces francophone kids with a noticeably higher baseline French proficiency than the other provinces.

It might be a selection thing.

In modern-day Ontario, academically minded parents enrol their children in the school board that is likely to produce the best possible outcome. It's why French Immersion is growing by bounds in cities like Toronto, despite overall enrolment numbers being flat or declining. In particular, French Catholic school systems have the advantage of being viewed as more 'disciplined' than their English Catholic and English Public counterparts.

By contrast, linguistically and academically weaker students tend to end up in English schools for a variety of reasons. I've observed this phenomenon.

I'm not saying there's a huge gulf (Canada does reasonably well in school outcomes), but the 'cream of the crop' is statistically more likely to be in the French Catholic school system in Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It might be a selection thing.

In modern-day Ontario, academically minded parents enrol their children in the school board that is likely to produce the best possible outcome. It's why French Immersion is growing by bounds in cities like Toronto, despite overall enrolment numbers being flat or declining. In particular, French Catholic school systems have the advantage of being viewed as more 'disciplined' than their English Catholic and English Public counterparts.

By contrast, linguistically and academically weaker students tend to end up in English schools for a variety of reasons. I've observed this phenomenon.

I'm not saying there's a huge gulf (Canada does reasonably well in school outcomes), but the 'cream of the crop' is statistically more likely to be in the French Catholic school system in Ontario.

This is most definitely true.

It definitely maps onto subjects like math and science (which are also tested) but I have many doubts about it doing the same for French.

At least relative to students in other societies that are more wholly francophone.

Obviously they're better in French than kids in any other Ontario school system, and this IMO includes the province's French public system.

I know a bunch of these kids who go to Ontario French Catholic schools. I talk to them. I've read what they write.

I was actually in the company of a number of them this weekend.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is most definitely true.

It definitely maps onto subjects like math and science (which are also tested) but I have many doubts about it doing the same for French.

At least relative to students in other societies that are more wholly francophone.

Obviously they're better in French than kids in any other Ontario school system, and this IMO includes the province's French public system.

I know a bunch of these kids who go to Ontario French Catholic schools. I talk to them. I've read what they write.

I was actually in the company of a number of them this weekend.

A thought comes to mind:

The most terrible English-language writing seemingly comes from native English speakers. Why? While familiarity should theoretically increase one's strength in the language, it can also serve to allow one to abuse it in ways non-native speakers don't have the same comfort with.

Every time I talk to someone (in English) from continental Europe, I generally am astounded at how formal and proper they sound. Their communication tends to reflect deliberate choice and work in phrasing, because they work with the language in a clinical sense, not an everyday one.

Maybe this effect is happening in Ontario with French? One uses the grammatically correct process, because one can't really abuse it otherwise.

You're probably right, though.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

Respectfully, I'm curious as to why nonreligious parents would desire their children to be educated in any particular religious doctrine (ahem, 'values') in their school.

Did your kids believe in Santa Claus?

Anyway its not like there's a lot of religious teaching that happens in Catholic schools anyway. morning prayer, once or twice a week look into "values"... and about 3 masses during the school year... and preparations for the 1st communion and confirmation (optional by the way)
My daughter has to take only 1 religion class in High School, and its Introduction to the Religions of the World - which is actually more like history than "religion"
My wife is an elementary teacher in French Catholic, so was my mother (she actually taught religion for 10+ year in junior high), my mom is not a practicing or a believing catholic either

[Richard Eade]

Since post 87 this has, effectively, been a discussion of Catholic schools. Is it time to change the thread's title to something reflecting its content?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

A thought comes to mind:

The most terrible English-language writing seemingly comes from native English speakers. Why? While familiarity should theoretically increase one's strength in the language, it can also serve to allow one to abuse it in ways non-native speakers don't have the same comfort with.

Every time I talk to someone (in English) from continental Europe, I generally am astounded at how formal and proper they sound. Their communication tends to reflect deliberate choice and work in phrasing, because they work with the language in a clinical sense, not an everyday one.

Maybe this effect is happening in Ontario with French? One uses the grammatically correct process, because one can't really abuse it otherwise.

You're probably right, though.

Yes, I am aware of the phenomenon. The best French of anyone in my personal entourage is possessed by a second-language speaker. Though that person is not anglophone, they could be. We've had native anglophones win the Prix Goncourt (equivalent to the Booker Prize in English) and of course many Booker winners aren't native English speakers either.

But getting back to these kids, this doesn't apply to them. Most aren't very good in French when you listen to them speak or read what they write. They make plenty of grammatical mistakes, they mix up masculine and feminine of nouns and get their accords wrong. In addition to an innumerable number of false friends imported from English that make no sense to native francophones from elsewhere.

I've heard that teachers at the French Catholic school board in Ottawa actually do those comparative exams *with* the kids as a group in class. Something which I gather you're no supposed to do. But who's checking, right?

[Tesladom]

And Anglophones who attend English schools don't make grammatical or spelling mistakes? Sheesh, most English people I know don't know homophones, really annoying when they don't know which witch, or we're were where, or break & brake... and on and on

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

And Anglophones who attend English schools don't make grammatical or spelling mistakes? Sheesh, most English people I know don't know homophones, really annoying when they don't know which witch, or we're were where, or break & brake... and on and on

I think... we're getting lost in the weeds in here.

My point is simply that the stratospheric test scores of French Catholic schools (especially the Ottawa board) for the French language in particular are hard to reconcile with the apparent reality on the ground when one actually knows a decent number of their pupils personally.

Year after year, the board posts releases like this one that trumpets their test results.

https://www.ecolecatholique.ca/fr/Ch...rovinciaux_484

In this case, we're talking about provincial testing. It's not hard to believe that their students are the best in French in Ontario.

But they also boast of similarly awesome results on pan-Canadian testing and also international testing.

That's perhaps what I am most skeptical about, especially relative to average results of students in Quebec, France, Belgium and Switzerland.

[stolenottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

are hard to reconcile with the apparent reality on the ground when one actually knows a decent number of their pupils personally.

Yeah, I gotta disagree with you. You're making very broad statements that may be the case for you anecdotally, but the kids that I know who go to Catholic School speak French perfectly well and aren't making the grammatical mistakes that you're attributing to them.