Winnipeg | Hudson’s Bay Building | Wehwehneh Bahgahkinahgohn | U/C

[blueandgoldguy]

Bay is going to hand over the Bay building to the Southern Chiefs organization.

Besides housing maybe we see a museum and an Indigenous school.

[zalf]

A museum in the centre would certainly go a way toward solving the problem of the building's sheer size. It's a decidedly less window-demanding use than most.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Bay is going to hand over the Bay building to the Southern Chiefs organization.

Besides housing maybe we see a museum and an Indigenous school.

Given the sad financial straits HBC is in, how do they justify turning it over for nothing? Is commercial real estate in downtown Winnipeg really worth so little?

[esquire]

^ That is an intriguing idea... you know it's going to happen somewhere in Canada so it would great for Winnipeg to nail it down before some other place gets it. The location is great and there is also some interesting symbolism to doing something like that in a HBC building.

Although I have to wonder, with the epic museum projects we've had in Winnipeg over the last 20 years (WAG expansion, Aviation Museum, Manitoba Museum upgrades and of course the mother of them all, CMHR), is there going to be museum donation fatigue?

[robertocarlos]

I would ask $20 million for the parkade. Not a penny less.

The Toronto owner must have seen the future. He has the city over a barrel.

[trueviking]

A museum could be a nice part of the plan. Definitely a small part in the context of 650,000 square foot building. Like half of one floor. This was part of the U of W's scheme.

Metis on one end of the street and Indigenous people on the other side.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

A museum could be a nice part of the plan. Definitely a small part in the context of 650,000 square foot building. Like half of one floor. This was part of the U of W's scheme.

Metis on one end of the street and Indigenous people on the other side.

I think a true national centre of Indigenous History, Culture and Language would be significantly larger than "half of one floor". As a point of reference, the CMHR is 260,000 sq ft, just under half the size of the Bay building. Also keep in mind the national centre as I describe it has larger teaching and research roles than CMHR as it would in part be an academic centre of excellence. Further still, the vision includes a library for materials in traditional Indigenous languages.

Yes, it might still be short of the full 650,000 sq ft but there could be other complimentary uses, such as reopening the Paddlewheel as a restaurant featuring Indigenous foods. Some of the unused space could be held in reserve for a future expansion of the centre, sort of similar to how Hotel Fort Garry didn't reopen the building all at once but worked on getting more limited areas open first and them expanding as they went.

Above all else the top challenge is to find someone as quickly as possible that makes sense for a project in the building and get them to take ownership of it, at least in concept, as soon as possible. If someone as a vested interesting in keeping the building secure it will actively work to keep out unauthorized people which could permanently damage or destroy the building.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I think a true national centre of Indigenous History, Culture and Language would be significantly larger than "half of one floor". As a point of reference, the CMHR is 260,000 sq ft, just under half the size of the Bay building. Also keep in mind the national centre as I describe it has larger teaching and research roles than CMHR as it would in part be an academic centre of excellence. Further still, the vision includes a library for materials in traditional Indigenous languages.

Yes, it might still be short of the full 650,000 sq ft but there could be other complimentary uses, such as reopening the Paddlewheel as a restaurant featuring Indigenous foods. Some of the unused space could be held in reserve for a future expansion of the centre, sort of similar to how Hotel Fort Garry didn't reopen the building all at once but worked on getting more limited areas open first and them expanding as they went.

Above all else the top challenge is to find someone as quickly as possible that makes sense for a project in the building and get them to take ownership of it, at least in concept, as soon as possible. If someone as a vested interesting in keeping the building secure it will actively work to keep out unauthorized people which could permanently damage or destroy the building.

Ah. I see. I didn't think you meant a full new national museum. That would be great.

[blueandgoldguy]

The National Museum of the American Indian in Washington is 250,000 square feet. I'm sure a national museum approx. half that size would be viable in Canada, preferably here in Winnipeg.

The addition of university classroom space for aboriginal-related courses (and partnership with U of W), aboriginal-themed restaurant(s), and a centre for aboriginal-based business start-ups could utilize at least 2 floors at the Bay.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Ah. I see. I didn't think you meant a full new national museum. That would be great.

Indigenous organizations are one of the few areas that seem to be able to leverage federal funding which is going to be needed for the Bay building redevelopment.

As others have suggested, a national museum is likely to happen somewhere in Canada for Indigenous culture, language and history.

Winnipeg is on Treaty 1 land. Treaty 1 being the first to be signed by the modern Canadian government.

Winnipeg is said to have the highest percentage of Indigenous people of the major Canadian urban centres. There are also five distinct Indigenous groups that have significant representation in Winnipeg already.

There is also something to be said about the symbolism for the former HQ of Hudsons Bay becoming a national museum of this stature.

The challenge is while the back of a napkin pitch of the idea has a lot of merit in the current societal context it very much is an idea that needs to have significant Indigenous leadership and cooperation behind it to get moving forward. I am not sure if that is there.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Drove by the east side yesterday. Bunch of graffiti on the 2nd floor already.

[KellyEdwards]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Indigenous organizations are one of the few areas that seem to be able to leverage federal funding which is going to be needed for the Bay building redevelopment.

As others have suggested, a national museum is likely to happen somewhere in Canada for Indigenous culture, language and history.

Winnipeg is on Treaty 1 land. Treaty 1 being the first to be signed by the modern Canadian government.

Winnipeg is said to have the highest percentage of Indigenous people of the major Canadian urban centres. There are also five distinct Indigenous groups that have significant representation in Winnipeg already.

There is also something to be said about the symbolism for the former HQ of Hudsons Bay becoming a national museum of this stature.

The challenge is while the back of a napkin pitch of the idea has a lot of merit in the current societal context it very much is an idea that needs to have significant Indigenous leadership and cooperation behind it to get moving forward. I am not sure if that is there.

As an Indigenous person born in Winnipeg, I do have to say that I personally don't think this is a great use of space for the building.

If you really want to make an indigenous museum, it needs to be architecturally significant like the Human Rights Museum and probably located at The Forks (the grounds we gathered for thousands of years).

HBC has a very frayed relationship with indigenous peoples in my opinion. They "sold" Rupert's Land to Canada (literally European-to-European-only transactions without indigenous knowledge) and there a bunch of other difficult histories that have never been reconciled.

To me, HBC is an ugly corporation and I'd never want to be associated with them knowing their deeper histories.

Not only that, but Winnipeg has a lot of racists and they're usually expressed from downtown crowds (mainly because of all the homeless).

When it comes to building a business case for revenue for an indigenous museum, you'd rather prefer to piggyback your marketing onto CMHR and be in its vicinity to encourage a theme of space for The Forks.

That itself would become more of an attraction imho.

I think for this downtown building, the better use of it would be mixed-use. I live in California now and there's a place called 8th and Grand in LA that I love. I think that should serve as inspiration for the 1st floor for the old HBC building.

Imagine the front of Portage Avenue serving as open restaurants in the summer and indoor cafe-like seating by winter.

The top 2-3 floors can be lofts/residential (because there's a hipster market for these kinds of conversions). I've seen some in Toronto with similar widths to HBC. They're not the prettiest (like unpainted wood frame stairs) but people were paying $3K/mo for them just because they had a 2nd floor/lofty/trendy space.

I even believe the renovation happening on Smith street is following this loft model and creating 2-floor residential suites where they floor once separated them.

I think Manitoba needs more of the right tech accelerators, more fostering of non-traditional businesses and create a new space for entrepreneurship. I think the mid floors there should be a 'We Work' like company.

A We Work-like space IS AMAZING IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY TRIED IT!

As an entrepreneur myself in the tech industry, it was honestly the best networking and working experience in general I've had being self-employed.

I truly understood why millennials just ate it up like hotcakes!

The bookable meeting spaces, floating workspaces, secured work desks and access to office supplies/equipment are just some of the perks.

Such a 24/7 space could also serve students in the nearby area.

If Manitoba wants to retain tech talent, they need to foster it. When you really look at the big picture, all these tech opportunities are arising but Manitoba is still stuck on banking/financial and agribusiness as its primary industries.

Otherwise people like myself move-out of Manitoba and pay 6-figure taxes to other governments.

And as much as we want to say Manitoba is a manufacturer, let's just say the provincial government is stretching their words at this point in my opinion. That CanadaPort project is basically complete, but we didn't see the building spree we hoped for. Companies like Boeing are just there for $60M in tax breaks.

Tech is where its at! We will only likely see an explosion in online entrepreneurialism in the Prairies over the next generation as Elon Musk's Starlink begins connecting more hundreds of thousands of Manitoba/Sasks to higher speed internet where there was little-or-no coverage before.

Santiago, Chile is an amazing example of how building space combined with government changes could lead to purposeful growth in the tech industry. Their accelerator programs there are amazingly ace!

Budding entrepreneurs and startups are often short in capital and really there is no other cheaper/better Canadian city than Winnipeg. Capitalizing on that is a must.

Anyway, thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

tldr; Diversify, reinvent and reorient this space towards tech.

[Biff]

4) CentreVenture or some form of government had to be involved in the Market
Lands project due to the caveat on the southern portion of the site remaining part of the public realm. I believe the rest of the site is being marketed as you mentioned is open to development proposals.

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by Biff

4) CentreVenture or some form of government had to be involved in the Market
Lands project due to the caveat on the southern portion of the site remaining part of the public realm. I believe the rest of the site is being marketed as you mentioned is open to development proposals.

Yes!

But that portion could have been recreation for Red River College or community green space and be done with it. The balance of the site to be sold without all the preconditions of CV development agreements. Realty taxes would be flowing by spring time.

Let the planning department determine appropriate use not CV. It’s not their mandate to do so! Millions have been spent so far on consultants and “community consultation” and they have no funding yet to build anything that I’m aware of or has been announced.

Stop competing with building owners in the area by providing brand new government subsidized commercial and retail space. You will never fill these beautiful historic buildings when government subsidized space floods the area.

Provide $20,000,000 for masonry repairs, windows, roofs, electrical, elevators and plumbing...

Best wishes over the holidays ...

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Labroco

Yes!

But that portion could have been recreation for Red River College or community green space and be done with it. The balance of the site to be sold without all the preconditions of CV development agreements. Realty taxes would be flowing by spring time.

Let the planning department determine appropriate use not CV. It’s not their mandate to do so! Millions have been spent so far on consultants and “community consultation” and they have no funding yet to build anything that I’m aware of or has been announced.

Stop competing with building owners in the area by providing brand new government subsidized commercial and retail space. You will never fill these beautiful historic buildings when government subsidized space floods the area.

Provide $20,000,000 for masonry repairs, windows, roofs, electrical, elevators and plumbing...

Best wishes over the holidays ...

green space for red river college students to frolic around in? That's the vision for the exchange district?

So the planning department says it should be multi family residential and commercial...then what? The planning department tries to develop the public caveat site? The planning department runs an RFP and sells the land to the highest bidder? I don't think you know what a planning department does. It is precisely CV's mandate to work with developers to do what is best for downtown. Creating a landmark public node won't be done by a developer or the planning department.

I welcome government intervention to do create a project for the public good. Yeah it may put a few low rent tenant spaces back on the market, but to make an impact on the city, i'm all for it. Hopefully it inspires some property owners in the area to develop the underused land they own. The goal is to leverage the property to make the exchange district a more desirable place to live and work so adjacent property owners are better able to fill their spaces. It is not competition. Its helping current land owners by creating a catalyst and a destination. We cant be held back from greater aspirations because a few low rent tenant spaces might go back on the market. They are developing the public site with affordable housing and a public market. What developer would do that? Developers don't build big vision, public good projects. They build to their pro-forma. We need both to be successful as a city. Its what government should do.

Why would you not want development agreements to ensure developers build what they say they will. They protect the public interest and put pressure on developers so they don't just take a property and sit on it forever. This isn't about taxes flowing as fast as possible, its about creating the best thing for downtown and the city.

[buzzg]

Red River didn't want that portion with the caveat. The northern 75% of the land is being split and sold to private developers, with CV overseeing to make sure the whole block works well together (a good thing). Also, CV already has the funding in place for the market portion, they're just finalizing the details and who will be operating it – the RFP closed Dec 11, we should hear early in 2021 how it rolls out.

[Labroco]

[QUOTE=buzzg;9143310]Red River didn't want that portion with the caveat. The northern 75% of the land is being split and sold to private developers, with CV overseeing to make sure the whole block works well together (a good thing). Also, CV already has the funding in place for the market portion, they're just finalizing the details and who will be operating it – the RFP closed Dec 11, we should hear early in 2021 how it rolls out.

Let’s see what happens...

[Tfc99]

How about bring it down and repurpose the stone like mts centre

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by Tfc99

How about bring it down and repurpose the stone like mts centre

There was no repurposed stone used for the MTS Centre.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

There was no repurposed stone used for the MTS Centre.

The closest to repurposed stone in there would be the original Eaton's window and Tyndall Stone surround on the 2nd floor by the Somerset Building skywalk.