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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 7:39 PM
GeoNerd GeoNerd is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think you're making lots of assumptions about people's lifestyles. Many people actually like having a big yard and deck for entertaining, to let the kids out to play, or a pool to swim in. Many like gardening and yes some people even enjoy doing yard work like mowing the lawn.
Yes, and there is no reason you can't do those same things in the city. If you can afford a big house in Enbrun with a huge yard, you can likely afford a smaller version of that in many parts of the city.

And yes, there will always be the Walmartland, camo-hat, pickup drivin' group of people that have zero interest in the culture rich amenities of the city. I have nothing against anyone that wants to live that way. That's the great thing about living in a free-country is you can live any way you please. Let's call what living in the exurbs is...a cheaper, simple, car-centric lifestyle, with very like-minded people. But don't try and pawn it off as a "better lifestyle" than what you can get in the city. Better is definitely not the word I would use.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
Yeah, so what, the cottage is a rental property, its set up to be cashflow neutral, I only rent out around 25% of the time and that's enough to cover all the costs and financing for it.
I Think the point was, don't say you're in the upper 10% income bracket, own a house AND cottage, but claim you can't afford to live inside the greenbelt. If any of that is true, you 100% can afford to live inside the greenbelt. You just choose a lifestyle that doesn't allow you to.
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
Yes, and there is no reason you can't do those same things in the city. If you can afford a big house in Enbrun with a huge yard, you can likely afford a smaller version of that in many parts of the city.

And yes, there will always be the Walmartland, camo-hat, pickup drivin' group of people that have zero interest in the culture rich amenities of the city. I have nothing against anyone that wants to live that way. That's the great thing about living in a free-country is you can live any way you please. Let's call what living in the exurbs is...a cheaper, simple, car-centric lifestyle, with very like-minded people. But don't try and pawn it off as a "better lifestyle" than what you can get in the city. Better is definitely not the word I would use.
This is just too laden with stereotypes, though. I am familiar with places like Embrun and Rockland and also on the southern and western fringes of Ottawa and the vast majority of people there aren't as you describe.

And it's not a "better" or "worse" lifestyle than that of the city. It's just a different one.

Also, there is plenty of cross-pollination between both lifestyles. City slickers go boating up at the lake and shop in big box stores. Embrun and Carp people go the NAC and out for dinner on the market.

Some city slickers seem to think that if you move further out, you'll never be allowed to eat fine cheeses or listen to classical music again.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
And yes, there will always be the Walmartland, camo-hat, pickup drivin' group of people that have zero interest in the culture rich amenities of the city. I have nothing against anyone that wants to live that way. That's the great thing about living in a free-country is you can live any way you please. Let's call what living in the exurbs is...a cheaper, simple, car-centric lifestyle, with very like-minded people. But don't try and pawn it off as a "better lifestyle" than what you can get in the city. Better is definitely not the word I would use.
I happen to agree with you that living close to amenities and not needing to drive everywhere is a better lifestyle... but what constitutes a better lifestyle is subjective, not objective. You can't say one or the other is "better".
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
I Think the point was, don't say you're in the upper 10% income bracket, own a house AND cottage, but claim you can't afford to live inside the greenbelt. If any of that is true, you 100% can afford to live inside the greenbelt. You just choose a lifestyle that doesn't allow you to.
My son once asked me - Hey Dad, can you buy a Lambo?... I said "No I can't afford it".... ok perhaps I could afford it, but not a wise financial move... same with spending $1.5Million on a house... so if you want to split hairs, yes i "can" afford it... and a Lambo too!!
Happy?
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 8:29 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Back on subject - I think it was ex-Mayor Larry O'Brien who initially proposed this site for a new suburb in his failed re-election bid about 10 years ago if I am correct?
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2021, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
ok perhaps I could afford it, but not a wise financial move... same with spending $1.5Million on a house... so if you want to split hairs, yes i "can" afford it... and a Lambo too!!
Happy?
Ok hotshot
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2021, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
IAnd so much for the theory Developers run city hall. Though maybe some dark money somewhere given one of the first proponents of this in council.
Wait, you think this one vote dismantles the theory that developers run city hall? Also, not for nothing but Taggart is a developer.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2021, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Demand is massive in Russell/Embrun, developers are already sold out for 2021 and won't release 2022 pricing til the spring. Big challenge throughout the region is also developers driving up price and limiting supply by releasing smaller phases. This helps them capture more profits by selling 20 houses at 800k, 20 houses at 825k, 20 at 850k etc rather than 60 at 800k.
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
But I don't think issues with housing prices are related to land availability. Lands added to the boundary years ago are still not built up. It's in the interests of builders to sell their houses for as much money as possible, so they release them slowly. The GOHBA would like us to believe that the urban boundary is the cause of high housing prices, but that is not the case.
Bingo! This is a huge problem - developers themselves are the ones constraining supply through this cartel behavior.

We can loosen zoning and open up every parcel in the whole countryside to urbanization and we'll still have constrained supply.

In the GTA it was noted that developers are sitting on tens of thousands of approved units, and all the city's inventory issues could be resolved if developers simply built what they already had permits for.

Before expanding the urban boundary, we need to solve this problem. One idea is charging punitive vacancy taxes on land (like perhaps a 20x increase in property tax rates) that has been approved for development but not yet developed. Force developers to build out their lands or go broke.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2021, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Bingo! This is a huge problem - developers themselves are the ones constraining supply through this cartel behavior.

We can loosen zoning and open up every parcel in the whole countryside to urbanization and we'll still have constrained supply.

In the GTA it was noted that developers are sitting on tens of thousands of approved units, and all the city's inventory issues could be resolved if developers simply built what they already had permits for.

Before expanding the urban boundary, we need to solve this problem. One idea is charging punitive vacancy taxes on land (like perhaps a 20x increase in property tax rates) that has been approved for development but not yet developed. Force developers to build out their lands or go broke.
I definitely agree that we need policies that free up as much housing supply as possible as quickly as possible. Our city's basically a one-trick pony in this regard. It seems our only idea for solving the problem is more and more sprawl. But since you can't sprawl your way to affordability, we're probably going to need some other ideas.

A vacancy tax is a good one but it's not a panacea. Vancouver implemented quite stringent vacancy taxes in 2018 but its impact was modest. I'm all in favour of adopting a similar policy in Ottawa. It's certainly better than more sprawl. But we should be honest with people because they're going to be mighty upset when that policy gets adopted and the problem doesn't go away in any meaningful way.
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Algonquin chiefs denounce urban expansion as 'wreck-onciliation'
Ottawa city council needs to listen to 'real Algonquins,' chiefs say

Kate Porter · CBC News
Posted: Feb 03, 2021 4:03 PM ET | Last Updated: 2 hours ago


Chiefs of Algonquin First Nations say a decision by municipal politicians to allow the Algonquins of Ontario to urbanize a large swath of land in Ottawa's rural south-east isn't reconciliation, and say they were never consulted on the project.

Mayor Jim Watson and many city councillors support a plan by the Algonquins of Ontario and their development partners, Taggart Group of Companies, to create an entirely new community of up to 45,000 residents. The development, near Amazon's Ottawa distribution centre, is to be called Tewin.

But chiefs of Kitigan Zibi, Kebaowek and other federally recognized communities don't consider the Algonquins of Ontario to be a legitimate entity. Rather, they characterize the group as a corporate body created just over a decade ago by the Ontario and federal governments to negotiate a land claim, and say it includes many non-status people with tenuous claims to Indigenous ancestry.

"I believe that there's more education that needs to be done with the City of Ottawa and their councillors," said Dylan Whiteduck, chief of Kitigan Zibi. "A body that was created is being awarded these types of lands that are rightfully unceded and rightfully the Algonquin nation's — ours."

"I call it 'wreck-onciliation,'" said Lance Haymond, chief of Kebaowek First Nation, who said he learned of the project when someone sent him a newspaper article about it. "They're going to wreck any real opportunity to have reconciliation with the real title holders and the nation on whose land everyone is sitting."

The Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation Tribal Council met Wednesday morning by video to discuss the Tewin project, and is drafting an open letter to Ottawa city council, CBC News has learned.

City council is set to vote Feb. 10 to allow the Algonquins of Ontario to select 445 hectares from land it owns near Boundary Road and Highway 417 to be included in a larger urban expansion of 1,281 hectares.

City staff confirmed to CBC News that parcels within that area scored poorly on such criteria as available infrastructure and proximity to public transit, while other rural properties scored significantly higher.

Despite that, Watson has characterized Tewin as an opportunity for reconciliation with Algonquin people, and said that process requires some flexibility.

The federal government officially recognizes 10 Algonquin First Nations, nine in Quebec and one — Pikwàkanagàn — in Ontario. The chiefs say they have never seen the Ottawa River as a border, but simply a travelling route.

The Quebec chiefs are concerned that the Ontario government sold land to the Algonquins of Ontario, who were given first right of refusal, without consulting them.

The Ottawa city councillors lining up behind the Tewin plan appear to be acting in haste because "the whole of Canada is buzzing about reconciliation," Haymond said.

"In this case, I think it's rather rushed and misguided. I appreciate the city is interested in doing reconciliation, but I think and believe that excluding the real Algonquins from plans for reconciliation activities is a rather sad situation."

Whiteduck has welcomed the city's decisions to rededicate a rail bridge over the Ottawa River and a street in Rideau-Rockcliffe ward in memory of former Kitigan Zibi chief William Commanda.

"They're small, great gestures," he acknowledged. But when it comes to this project, he said the city shouldn't be listening to the Algonquins of Ontario.

"If reconciliation is a priority, then listen to us, listen to the real Algonquins — status, real Algonquins," Whiteduck said.

With files from Jorge Barrera

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...dary-1.5899382
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 12:30 AM
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This dispute has been going on for a while regarding the Algonquin Land Claim in Ontario, and I'm fairly sure the Algonquins of Ontario have successfully fought off legal challenges.

However, it would make things quite interesting if other developers tried to partner with rival Algonquin groups...
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 5:14 AM
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The challenge of reconciliation is that indigenous communities are so loosely governed that it is impossible to achieve consensus. We saw that with the railway blockades a year ago. Who do you negotiate with?
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 1:16 PM
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- We did this for you guys!

- Uh no. Who you callin' "you guys"?
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 1:43 PM
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Isn't this exactly what happened with Zibi? No lessons were learned that time?
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 1:56 PM
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I do believe there are a lot of illegitimated people who call themselves "First Nations" Super white guys with blue eyes (Roger Fleury) and a few others.

I think this is a legit concern. Governments are often looking for easy wins, and that often means quick action with little consultation with those who are effected.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 2:02 PM
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Not sure "affected" is the right term.

How many Algonquin people live in the area designated for Tewin?

(There are actually relatively few Algonquin people living in Ottawa itself. The various nods to the Algonquin people exist because the area is part of their historic territory, not because of a significant residential settlement on their part in what is today Ottawa - neither historic nor current.)
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not sure "affected" is the right term.

How many Algonquin people live in the area designated for Tewin?

(There are actually relatively few Algonquin people living in Ottawa itself. The various nods to the Algonquin people exist because the area is part of their historic territory, not because of a significant residential settlement on their part in what is today Ottawa - neither historic nor current.)
What I meant by that was, the City saw this as an easy "win" for reconciliation so they pounced at the opportunity without consulting all of the Algonquin groups, the affected parties in reconciliation.
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 2:24 PM
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What I meant by that was, the City saw this as an easy "win" for reconciliation so they pounced at the opportunity without consulting all of the Algonquin groups, the affected parties in reconciliation.
Yes, I would agree with that.

Though not sure if the kerfuffle is due to the city not doing their homework, or simply the impossibility of figuring out who actually speaks for which group these days.
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2021, 2:29 PM
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Yes, I would agree with that.

Though not sure if the kerfuffle is due to the city not doing their homework, or simply the impossibility of figuring out who actually speaks for which group these days.
Probably a bit of both.
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