Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The city was also under blackouts in WWII, with people wondering if and when bombings would start.

It wasn't just Halifax under blackouts during the war. My parents lived in Borden PEI during WW2, and they told me stories about nightly blackouts during the war. Borden was at risk because it was a ferry terminal. The PEI ferries were all painted camouflage grey during the war. One of the ferries was sunk by a U-boat, but it was returning from drydock in Halifax at the time, so no passengers were on board. There was a lot of shipping sunk in the Gulf of St. Lawrence by U-boat attack, including, ironically the corvette HMCS Charlottetown.

The war was a lot closer to home than a lot of Canadians realize.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It wasn't just Halifax under blackouts during the war. My parents lived in Borden PEI during WW2, and they told me stories about nightly blackouts during the war. Borden was at risk because it was a ferry terminal. The PEI ferries were all painted camouflage grey during the war. One of the ferries was sunk by a U-boat, but it was returning from drydock in Halifax at the time, so no passengers were on board. There was a lot of shipping sunk in the Gulf of St. Lawrence by U-boat attack, including, ironically the corvette HMCS Charlottetown.

The war was a lot closer to home than a lot of Canadians realize.

Newfoundland had blackouts too. A Nfld ferry was also sunk, 137 people died.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by aastra

A lot of these notions about Victoria are just myths. Victorians love fast food chains, Starbucks, Tim Hortons, 7-11, and drive-throughs. Per capita comparisons with other supposedly unhealthy/unenlightened Canadian cities have never been flattering.

Also, Victorians fetishize their Wal-Mart supercentres and big box shopping generally, which is one of the reasons why the downtown core has taken such a massive hit in the past ~30 years.

This may be a first but I'll disagree with Aastra here. 400,000 people and there are only two Walmart's, a third in the works. For years people went up island to a tiny town called Duncan of they wanted Burger King as there were none in town. It's only been a decade or so since there has been a Tim Hortons downtown and there are still just two, neither that busy. In fact Moncton had more Hortons than all of greater Victoria. Not too mention, just one Costco, which is the suburbs of Victoria.

Interesting Halifax history, maybe in the future the Pacific will be more relevant for Canada in terms of the Navy, but that's more likely to be the Arctic.

[aastra]

Come on, the Uptown Wal-Mart is definitely not your typical Wal-Mart (the Langford Wal-Mart is a typical Wal-Mart). Victorians embraced the Woolco Wal-Mart but they've mobbed the Uptown store since the day it opened. And when the Hillside store opens there will be a pair of modern two-level supercentre stores effectively within walking distance of each other.

Yes, Victoria was always lighter on Tim Hortons but (much) heavier on Starbucks.

For years people went up island to a tiny town called Duncan of they wanted Burger King as there were none in town.

Dude! I actually stripped this out of my original comment just to keep things brief. Check it out below:

"Sometimes I wonder if Burger King's first departure from Victoria was the origin of the myth re: Victorians and fast food. If Burger King didn't succeed then Victorians must not care for fast food chains (pay no attention to the dozens of established McDonald's, A&W, and fried chicken locations all over town)."

[someone123]

In Canada an urban core can have a distinct lifestyle catering to unique demographics, often more transit or walking or biking oriented and with more unique cultural amenities and businesses. Then there are more generic outer suburbs. One important distinction is whether or not the core has enough critical mass to be an interesting place to live or visit. The ratio of population between the core and periphery is I think much less important. I tend to think of the presence of the interesting parts as being much more important than whether or not there are uninteresting areas next door.

Canada also tends to have regional clusters with the differences between regions being larger than the differences within regions. Yet the dominant cultural view is often near-twins in a region will be contrasted. They are only significant in a regional context. Zoom out and they look very similar compared to a city in a faraway region. Zoom out farther to the whole world and every Canadian city is pretty similar in many ways.

[aastra]

Anyway, far be it from me to sully the atmosphere on this board by being argumentative. I invite you (zoomer) to take up my comment in the McD's thread over on VV. We can sling mud all day over there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by samne

Most American big city is Chicago.

Yeah, there is rarely a perfect choice for these things, but I can't think of a better one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

So we're going by residence duration of one's ancestors now?

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned First Nations Reserves as feeling the most "Canadian". Heck there's probably no place more Canadian by far than our Territories if you subscribe to the Bering Strait Migration theory. If by city then Winnipeg should be #1 based solely on their proportion of First Nations population.

I thought about them too as did others, but they're not really cities. Winnipeg has a large Indigenous population for sure, but it's not really a city where that culture predominates. The relationship is also confrontational and uneasy at times.

And of course, while Indigenous culture is clearly "of the land now known as Canada", more than any other, whether it's actually "Canadian" is a matter of debate. Most of the questioning about that comes from Indigenous people themselves.

Québécois culture OTOH is quite clearly Canadien, and denials of that fact, by either anti-French ROCers or séparatist Québécois, is at a minimum a historical fallacy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I mean, you're talking to someone who doesn't really believe in the notion of Canadian as it pertains to people. We all happen to live in Canada but we're all a mash of whatever our background is. It's a shared-experience with wildly different language, cultural, and social backings. Canadian is a blank slate that can be whatever we want it to be on that day, for better or for worse.

I don't actually disagree that much with the idea, though I suspect we'd differ quite a bit as soon as the discussion got even a little bit deeper.

Some of these exchanges remind me of my university days in Ontario, when some people would argue that Canada's identity was to not have an identity. And the fact the the country didn't have an identity is what made the country unique! So maybe Canada did have an identity after all!

It was all very confusing. Especially to foreign students and of course the handful of Québécois. (I was not one of the latter at that point.)

And no, I am not the one who instigated those discussions.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

...

Québécois culture OTOH is quite clearly Canadien, and denials of that fact, by either anti-French ROCers or séparatist Québécois, is at a minimum a historical fallacy.

That is very true, I think of both the Québécois and Anglo as equally Canadian (it's ironic to be so Canadian and yet so distinct or even separatist). But the Que. culture is not as "average" Canadian as the Anglo culture by percentage.

[flar]

It's puzzling to me to see so many saying Toronto is least Canadian. I always thought of Toronto as ultra Canadian. Most of Canada is very Canadian.

For least, I would say Windsor and Hamilton.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It wasn't just Halifax under blackouts during the war. My parents lived in Borden PEI during WW2, and they told me stories about nightly blackouts during the war. Borden was at risk because it was a ferry terminal. The PEI ferries were all painted camouflage grey during the war. One of the ferries was sunk by a U-boat, but it was returning from drydock in Halifax at the time, so no passengers were on board. There was a lot of shipping sunk in the Gulf of St. Lawrence by U-boat attack, including, ironically the corvette HMCS Charlottetown.

The war was a lot closer to home than a lot of Canadians realize.

U-Boats travelled as far as Quebec City during WWII.



You can really see the merchant ship killing ground that was the area not covered by air cover until early 1943.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

That is very true, I think of both the Québécois and Anglo as equally Canadian (it's ironic to be so Canadian and yet so distinct or even separatist). But the Que. culture is not as "average" Canadian as the Anglo culture by percentage.

Indeed. As I said earlier, on Dec. 31, Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin' Eve is "more typically Canadian" numerically than Le Bye Bye on Radio-Canada. (Though the numbers are probably pretty close.)

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by flar

It's puzzling to me to see so many saying Toronto is least Canadian. I always thought of Toronto as ultra Canadian. Most of Canada is very Canadian.

For least, I would say Windsor and Hamilton.

For us in the hinterland, it seems that Toronto has turned its back on the rest of the country as it tries too hard to be a "World Class City" Whatever the heck that means.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Indeed. As I said earlier, on Dec. 31, Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin' Eve is "more typically Canadian" numerically than Le Bye Bye on Radio-Canada. (Though the numbers are probably pretty close.)

The USA is very much a part of our cultural "bubble", but we always use some cultural distancing for good measure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by flar

It's puzzling to me to see so many saying Toronto is least Canadian. I always thought of Toronto as ultra Canadian.

.

There are quite a few arguments on this thread as to why some people think that's the case, though. It's not just something that people just threw out there as a slag. (Obviously some may disagree with the arguments put forward.)

[flar]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

For us in the hinterland, it seems that Toronto has turned its back on the rest of the country as it tries too hard to be a "World Class City" Whatever the heck that means.

I don't see how others' resentment makes Toronto less Canadian. I get that people hate Toronto, they do where I live too, but it's so Canadian in my mind, especially 70s to 90s era Toronto.

[Andy6]

Toronto was Canadian (if in a somewhat didactic way that grated on the rest of the country) back when that meant Robertson Davies, Northrop Frye, Pierre Berton, Gordon Sinclair, Foster Hewitt, Peter Gzowski, Margaret Atwood, the Grey Cup game at Varsity and the like. I was in on the tag-end of that era but it doesn't seem real anymore. Toronto is a headless monster now, though probably a toothless one too (which I suppose follows from being headless).

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by flar

I don't see how others' resentment makes Toronto less Canadian. I get that people hate Toronto, they do where I live too, but it's so Canadian in my mind, especially 70s to 90s era Toronto.

70's to 90's Toronto sure, not today's Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Toronto was Canadian (if in a somewhat didactic way that grated on the rest of the country) back when that meant Robertson Davies, Northrop Frye, Pierre Berton, Gordon Sinclair, Foster Hewitt, Peter Gzowski, Margaret Atwood, the Grey Cup game at Varsity and the like. I was in on the tag-end of that era but it doesn't seem real anymore. Toronto is a headless monster now, though probably a toothless one too (which I suppose follows from being headless).

I know the reaction of many to what you're saying is to claim that other Canadians want to impose something on Toronto that just doesn't fit. I don't think that's true. I think there is room for Toronto to be Toronto. (Just at there is room in the US for NYC to be NYC.) I just don't think there much interest in mutual sharing and dialogue on the part of the GTA. And also that there is an unrequited eagerness in the ROC to see Toronto play more of a leadership role as the head of the family so to speak.

As I said upthread, the attitude seems to be "That Canadianistic stuff is cute and all, but we're just too busy doing more important shit with New York and New Delhi. So just follow our lead and STFU."

(This is also an appropriate moment to recognize that Quebec most definitely doesn't play ball very much with the rest of the country on such matters. Even less so than Toronto of course. But at least Quebec doesn't lay claim to a coast-to-coast leadership role.