Stop using "Northeastern", "Midwestern", "Sunbelt" etc. for Canadian cities?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Historically it might make some sense, though all of the western states were settled by New Englanders (along with the immigrant English, Scots, Scandinavians, Germans etc.). And even so, western New York isn't New England; it's midwest.

One issue I previously alluded to is which settlers get to define the character of a region -- the earliest? The most numerous, or who has the most descendants? The most politically/culturally/socially powerful?

New England itself had lots of immigrants (Quebecois, Irish, Italians, Portuguese etc.) but we aren't using say, shared Italian influence to compare regions.

It appears that a lot of these similarities are based on colonial settlers with deep roots (eg. Yankees, New France, Southerners etc). But if so, then why have something like Ecotopia or Left Coast (which is based on a more modern conception of the character of the west coast). Why have Miami be part of the Caribbean, again which is more modern in character (eg. the Cuban and Latin American connection) and not Dixie, if you care about Anglo Settlers (as in the case of Michigan being Yankeedom)?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I would have said that, despite differences, there's considerable overlap/commonality wrt values.

I'd actually say almost the exact opposite.

One could argue that the culture and lifestyle of Canadians, or at least Anglo-Canadians, in terms of food, TV, movies, literature, fashion, sports, etc. has dovetailed so much with that of the U.S. that it's almost just a regional variant *within* that country's national culture at this point.

On the other hand, in spite of all that Canadians still retain a fairly different values system and outlook on life. This is not found in the superficial - you need to scratch the surface in order to find it. In light of my previous paragraph that's frankly remarkable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

All true, but it's inaccurate to consider these differences representative of Canada versus the United States. They're really just representative of Scarborough versus Philly, and Connecticut versus NWT.

You can find many regions of Canada that vary just as much or more from what you're describing as the Canadian version of these things.

For example, your examples...

Public transit use by CMA
Toronto, ON - 24.3%
Canadian average - 12.4%
St. John's, NL - 3.1%

Gun ownership by province
1. NL - 14,239 per 100K residents
10. ON - 4,362 per 100K residents

Obesity by province
1. NL - 33.9%
10. BC - 19.2%

There are very, very few things that are uniform across Canada - and they tend to be so abstract that they're likely shared by most North Americans at minimum.

There are also great variances of this nature between regions of the U.S.

I suppose there may be some instances where "everything changes" with respect to "X" as soon as you cross the border, and that this holds all along the border from the Atlantic to the Pacific. But I doubt there are very many such cases - I can't think of any right now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I've actually found that despite the prominence of guns in American culture, urban Canada and the urban US don't feel that different in terms of the feeling that guns or gun culture are all around you (unless an event happens involving a gun and is in the news). The difference seems more rural.

If I walk around most US big cities, be it New York, Boston, Denver, Californian cities etc. I don't get the feel like the average joe is more gun-obsessed than Torontonians, Vancouverites, Montrealers etc. On an intellectual level I know that the New Yorker is more likely to be packing heat than the Torontonian, but even if he or she has a gun somewhere in the car or stored in some cupboard, my default expectation is I'm not thinking or expecting a gun to be pulled out any given moment. Living and talking among urban Americans, guns don't come up any more in conversation than among urban Canadians, unless the issue itself is gun control and other related politics.

That's true but I would say there are still some differences.

In most large American cities people tend to be way more anxious about crime than people in Canadian cities.

Another thing is that even around the most liberal U.S. cities (with inner city mindsets fairly similar to Canada) when you get out far enough in the suburbs
it often gets quite a bit more conservative and religious than what you find in similar areas in Canada. The contrast with Quebec is very striking, and it's likely the contrast exists for other provinces too.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's true but I would say there are still some differences.

In most large American cities people tend to be way more anxious about crime than people in Canadian cities.

Another thing is that even around the most liberal U.S. cities (with inner city mindsets fairly similar to Canada) when you get out far enough in the suburbs
it often gets quite a bit more conservative and religious than what you find in similar areas in Canada. The contrast with Quebec is very striking, and it's likely the contrast exists for other provinces too.

Where are the conservative and religious areas in the Bay Area or suburban Boston?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Where are the conservative and religious areas in the Bay Area or suburban Boston?

Maybe for suburban Boston, some of the more religious Catholic Irish or Italian areas?

[Capsicum]

Would you say the 905 suburbs of Toronto would be not that conservative by US standards?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are also great variances of this nature between regions of the U.S.

I suppose there may be some instances where "everything changes" with respect to "X" as soon as you cross the border, and that this holds all along the border from the Atlantic to the Pacific. But I doubt there are very many such cases - I can't think of any right now.

For something that maybe changes really rapidly across Canadian vs. US bordering states -- maybe the influence of Spanish or Hispanic culture, which finds expression in ways like being the second language (not French) on labels and signs, and in things like familiarity with Spanish- or Hispanic derived things like Mexican cuisine, Latin music, Spanish classes in high school as "second language" for students etc.

In almost every state that's not the three most Northeastern New England states, French influence stops at one border and any Spanish influence doesn't have a corresponding spillover on the other, Canadian, side.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Here's how I look at Canada:

Pacific Canada or British Columbia
Canadian Prairies (AB, SK, MB)
Canadian Great Lakes Region or Ontario
Laurentian Canada or Quebec
Atlantic Canada (NS, NB, PEI, NL)
Northwestern Canada (YT, NWT)
Arctic Canada or Nunavut

Where would Timmins, ON and Rouyn-Noranda, QC be?

[Capsicum]

Another thing that stops or nearly stops at the border in a prominent way -- the assumption of a unified Black or African American culture, versus the less unified or easily defined Black Canadian culture (that is often more recent immigrant relative to the US, even in places like Windsor, or even if very long-standing like in Nova Scotia, has been separated from African American culture for so long that there isn't an immediate connection).

In most American towns, even really tiny ones, be it in the PNW or in Oklahoma or in Florida, even outside big cities there's a perceived African American culture that accurately or not, is still assumed to be the defining "Black culture". It seems quite cross-country so that even in the most immigrant-heavy Black communities, foreign-born Blacks never really outnumber the "native" Black culture, and in many cases it's the immigrants who assimilate to the latter.

In general, Black Americans and Black Canadians seem to stick to one side of the border. Italian Americans or Arab Americans might have Italian Canadian or Arab Canadian relatives whose communities spill over each other in Windsor and Detroit far more than their African American counterparts in Detroit or Buffalo to the nearest Canadian city to their north.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

With the caveat, of course, that your description of Americans applies better to many parts of Canada, especially mine, than your description of Canadians.

I never found NL to be more like the U.S.. I find it to have much less American influence than Ontario with isolation being a big factor and more Irish and English influence from the past.

[Capsicum]

Another difference between the US and Canada that's kind of noticeable -- the much stronger military culture.

Yes, they exist in Canada, but open displays of support for the military are much more visible, they seem much more prominent stateside so that small towns will have military recruiting offices in small malls and plazas, many more signs and messages honouring military veterans, stores celebrating or offering discounts for vets etc.

[Capsicum]

The much greater veneration for historical figures and attention paid to a mythologized past -- the Founding Fathers, the Revolution, the Constitution, the Civil War etc. too jumps out at me. It at times makes the US almost seem more "old world" in culture, compared to Canada.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I still don't get (at an emotional level, not an intellectual level) the amount of veneration some Americans have for their Constitution and the way they treat it as what I'd imagine in another culture might be called a "sacred" text or quasi-religious text.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

The much greater veneration for historical figures and attention paid to a mythologized past -- the Founding Fathers, the Revolution, the Constitution, the Civil War etc. too jumps out at me. It at times makes the US almost seem more "old world" in culture, compared to Canada.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I still don't get (at an emotional level, not an intellectual level) the amount of veneration some Americans have for their Constitution and the way they treat it as what I'd imagine in another culture might be called a "sacred" text or quasi-religious text.

So true!

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Another difference between the US and Canada that's kind of noticeable -- the much stronger military culture.

Yes, they exist in Canada, but open displays of support for the military are much more visible, they seem much more prominent stateside so that small towns will have military recruiting offices in small malls and plazas, many more signs and messages honouring military veterans, stores celebrating or offering discounts for vets etc.

I've noticed the same things when in the U.S. and very much so among my wife's American relatives. One of her cousins has joined the army and the other American family members go on and on about how great that is.

Even though in Canada our views and support of the military are quite toned down compared to there, many Americans are very impressed in how we show support for veterans and those who lost their lives. (poppies, participation in Remembrance Day ceremonies, highway of heroes in Ontario, etc.) Canadians probably do more for each individual fallen solider than what you'd see in the U.S..

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

The much greater veneration for historical figures and attention paid to a mythologized past -- the Founding Fathers, the Revolution, the Constitution, the Civil War etc. too jumps out at me. It at times makes the US almost seem more "old world" in culture, compared to Canada.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I still don't get (at an emotional level, not an intellectual level) the amount of veneration some Americans have for their Constitution and the way they treat it as what I'd imagine in another culture might be called a "sacred" text or quasi-religious text.

I'll admit I'm envious of this. I find that it gives them something concrete to ground their culture in.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I don't agree that either of those three things are very uniform across Canada. Urban versus rural, north versus south, established versus transient - they can fluctuate pretty widely. Surely Sydney has stats comparable to ours, and far removed from Richmond, for example.

I don't think we really have a gun culture here in the sense I think you're asking. It's definitely not something people associate with the ideals of freedom or even talk much about as in the United States. For example, I have absolutely no idea which of my friends has a gun.

My parents have a few - one was my grandfather's during WWII and doesn't even work, and the others are for hunting - Dad goes moose hunting once every few years, and turr hunting a little less frequently. It's just one of those... living closer to the land things that doesn't really fade here even in our most urban areas. There are always wild berries, herbs, lichens, mushrooms, rabbit, moose, turr, etc. in my parents' suburban deep freeze - among other things they don't gather themselves but purchase, like seal, squid, lobster, and fish.

We also have, what, 24,000 people in Labrador who skew any province-wide statistics about us toward territorial norms.

Yes, and Albertans also own guns, as do Ontarians, Manitobans, etc. I know people who hunt. It isn't like it isn't a thing here. But we lack the gun culture of the States, from coast to coast, even in rural or conservative areas.

Obviously rural Canada isn't going to have much in the way of transit, because it is largely an urban phenomenon. However, where transit exists, it is more robust than in the US, except in Newfoundland. Halifax still has a pretty decent transit system for a city of its size, just like Victoria does. Rural Canada is also less obese than Rural America. Remember the Stats cited earlier were for entire provinces, not just the cities.

[ue]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The only one I've heard outside of a handful of conversations on SSP is coastal BC belonging to the "Pacific Northwest", or Vancouver being one of a trio of major Pacific Northwest cities (the others being Seattle and Portland).

But even if you do a day trip from Vancouver to Bellingham, the differences are noticeable. The accents are different. Buildings from comparable eras are different. The food choices are different. And that's before people open their mouths (which in the US is very quickly). There's no mistaking that you're in a different country.

Southern Ontario being in the "Midwest" doesn't make any sense. Sure, both places were settled around the same time and both places have some vestiges of heavy industry, but the differences end there.

It would be amusing to ask a Torontonian if they're in the "midwest" of Canada. West of what? Even if the answer is a historical riddle that implies that Toronto is "west of Montreal, the formerly dominant city", Ontario itself never entered Confederation as anything but a major player.

I dunno. Seattle and Portland have pretty cosmopolitan food offerings. I agree that there is some variation, such as more Mexican and Southern-influenced food to Canadian-specific cuisine in BC. But it isn't like Thai food is exactly exotic in Tigard.

I'm really curious what you mean by the conversations being completely different too. I tend to agree that there are differences in how Americans and Canadians interact (less so in specific topics, though this does creep up too). However, the Cascadia region is the one region where this feels most blurred. Perhaps New England too, even though it seems more different from the Maritimes (though I have only been to the Maritimes so cannot confirm).

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Docere

We have a poster on SSP who seems to have made it a life mission to convince everyone that Toronto is basically a Sunbelt city.

And people debate whether Toronto and Ontario are "more" Northeastern or Midwestern. "Midwestern" is often used pejoratively though and Northeastern being a sign of cosmopolitanism.

Toronto's post-war sprawl is much more similar to Sunbelt sprawl than the Snowbelt/Rustbelt-style sprawl, in terms of the density, the size, the discrete urban-rural boundary.

You'd have to be denial if you believe Mississauga and Brampton have more resemblance to Putnam County, NY than West Covina, CA.

Toronto is a giant, glorified suburb, just like a Sunbelt city. Even Toronto city proper is mostly post-war suburbia. I don't see how pointing out this obvious fact with a few posts in a single thread means it is my "life mission".

Of course, there are some significant differences with Toronto's sprawl, such as all the TOD features and high bus ridership. In the Great Canadian Transit Thread, I pointed out that Scarborough has better transit ridership than both Queens and Brooklyn, NY. We can't look at only at the differences and ignore the similarities (or vice versa). But I think I have gone to greater lengths to point out those differences than anyone here. I'm not the one painting all these places with the same brush (e.g. The Soul-Sucking Canada thread).

[Pinion]

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