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  #101  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 12:43 AM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
good luck tracking people smart phones. because people will go for that. or also trackers in cars. i certainly wouldn't allow that for myself.
The whole idea is to reduce congestion. Therefore, there should be a charge during rush hour on congested routes so that those who want to pay, can get to where they are going quicker. The PMB is free flowing outside of rush hour but Hwy #1 into Vancouver is congested all day long. People should pay to use it during those times. If they want to use another free route, go ahead. Of course this is too simple so it will never happen. I would put cameras at all the on ramps and other strategic places.

Maybe charge to use other congested routes as well.

Anything like using cellphones or stuff installed in our cars is a no-go right from the start.
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  #102  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 3:43 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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How is not charging the exact people using the bridge not reasonable or fair?
Same logic can be applied to healthcare?
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  #103  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
good luck tracking people smart phones. because people will go for that. or also trackers in cars. i certainly wouldn't allow that for myself.
They will if they get a lower rate for doing so.
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  #104  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 6:20 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
good luck tracking people smart phones. because people will go for that.
Yes, you're absolutely correct - people will go for that. 'Cause that's exactly what happens to people with smart phones - they get tracked by Google and most of the other apps on their phones. They live with the tracking because of the benefits it brings.

And, as CanSpice said, people will gladly abandon their principles if it saves them a dime or two.
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  #105  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 6:59 AM
Bobert Bobert is offline
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How is not charging the exact people using the bridge not reasonable or fair?
Because the bridge was just one of many upgrades to the corridor. You'd need a mechanism that takes into account the upgrades through the capehorn and through Burnaby.
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  #106  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2017, 3:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
Same logic can be applied to healthcare?
Definitely.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 4:02 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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This article is all over the place but I stuck it here anyway...

6 January 2018
Expect Another Year of Squabbling Over Paying for Transportation

Vancouver British Columbia - Metro Vancouver motorists may be driving into a brand-new year stuck in the same old traffic jams, but at least they can take some pleasure in crossing bridges without paying the toll-man.

Promising to remove those hated tolls from the Port Mann and Golden Ears bridges is a key reason John Horgan ended up in the premier's office.

Horgan's NDP won several critical suburban swing ridings in the May election, when drivers were steaming mad about paying tolls.

But how long will drivers get to enjoy toll-free crossings before revenue-hungry politicians dream up new ways to get their money?

The Mobility Pricing Independent Commission is studying a range of new taxes, fees, levies, surcharges, and yes, tolls, as a way to pay for badly needed transportation improvements.

"Congestion on Metro Vancouver's roads and bridges is a challenge many of us experience daily," the commission's website says.

"Lengthy delays can leave us frustrated, stressed, and wasting time that could be spent doing things we actually like. It's time we do something about it."

Doing something we like instead of doing a slow burn in traffic sounds great.

But it could mean you'll have to do something nobody likes, paying more money to the government.

"You could look at tolling all of the bridges, you could look at distance-based charges, you could look at time-of-day charges," said Port Coquitlam Mayor Greg Moore, the chair of Metro Vancouver.

"You could look at what London does, where they charge you a fee to drive into the central business district."

The commission is also considering additional gas taxes, vehicle-registration fees, and even a surcharge on Uber fares.

Uber, Lyft, and other ride-hailing services are illegal in British Columbia, where Vancouver holds the dubious distinction of being the largest city in North America that doesn't have such services.

On Monday, an all-party committee of the B.C. legislature begins a series of public hearings on ride-hailing.

And the government has ordered yet another independent review of the issue with the goal of allowing Uber, Lyft, and others to start operating by the end of 2018.

Could Uber passengers see a transit surcharge on their fares once the service is finally legalized?

"Why not? Why wouldn't we look at everything that's on the table?" asks Moore, who thinks Uber should be approved, partly because it would complement transit services.

"For people living in the suburbs, sometimes that last kilometre of your transit ride is the hardest part of your commute, because the bus might be running only every half-hour, or on weekends, every hour," he said.

"If you can take the SkyTrain or your rapid bus to a depot, and then grab ride-sharing for the last kilometre for a couple of bucks, it makes the transit system work that much better."

But will Metro Vancouver finally get ride-for-hire in 2018 after six years of debate and delays?

And won't drivers get mad as hell all over again if they have to pay an Uber surcharge and other mobility-pricing charges to pay for expanded transit?

The B.C. government wants it known that mobility pricing is not the province's idea.

"Mobility pricing is being led by the mayors through their independent commission, not the provincial government," said Lisa Leslie, communications director at the ministry of municipal affairs.

"The mayors will make the decision."


But Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan says it's the provincial government that will have to approve, legislate, and implement any new mobility-pricing charges slapped on drivers.

"They couldn't simply say to the mayors, here, you go ahead and do it, without provincial legislation and giving their approval," Corrigan said.

"So I can't see them avoiding responsibility. They would eventually wear it."

Corrigan has suddenly emerged as a key figure in the looming debate over Metro Vancouver's transportation priorities and how they will be funded.

Corrigan was just elected chair of the Mayors Council on Regional Transportation, replacing Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson, while North Vancouver Mayor Richard Walton replaced Surrey Mayor Linda Hepner as vice-chair.

Corrigan said his transportation priorities are different than his predecessor's.

"The mayors' vision has been very ambitious and aggressive and I think it's because the previous chair and vice-chair have been pushing the projects in their own municipalities in lock-step," he said.

He's referring to the proposed Broadway subway line in Vancouver and Surrey's light-rail transit lines, two projects Corrigan thinks should rank behind a different Job One.

"The reality is the first priority is replacing the Pattullo Bridge, which is well beyond its usable age," Corrigan said.

Couldn't all three transportation mega projects be built at the same time?

Corrigan doubts it.

"I don't know if there is any organization across Canada capable of doing three major projects like that simultaneously and doing them well," he said.

"If you don't manage these projects in a very, very, careful way, it can easily end up costing taxpayers a lot more money."

I asked Corrigan if the Broadway subway and Surrey LRT should be delayed until the Pattullo is replaced.

"I'm not sure, I'm going to be talking to the provincial government about that," he said.

It's a comment that probably won't please his counterparts in Vancouver and Surrey.

Get set for a new year of squabbling over which big transportation project gets built first and who will pay for them.

Hopefully 2018 also includes a no-brainer, finally approving ride-for-hire, once and for all.

Mike Smyth.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 6:37 PM
Sheba Sheba is offline
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
"For people living in the suburbs, sometimes that last kilometre of your transit ride is the hardest part of your commute, because the bus might be running only every half-hour, or on weekends, every hour," he said.
That made me laugh as the majority of buses outside of CoV are only every half hour outside of rush hour. Hourly in the evening and on weekends isn't uncommon either. That's why a lot of people drive instead of taking transit - or drive to the park-and-ride and take the only rapid transit option(s) available to them. Ride hailing isn't going to be such a game changer in this situation.
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  #109  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 7:19 PM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
He's referring to the proposed Broadway subway line in Vancouver and Surrey's light-rail transit lines, two projects Corrigan thinks should rank behind a different Job One.

"The reality is the first priority is replacing the Pattullo Bridge, which is well beyond its usable age," Corrigan said.
As much as I'm an advocate of transit and have complained in the past about how much money we've spent on road projects, it's hard for me to disagree on him on this point. Although the Patullo is Translink's responsibility, it's the previous Provincial government who was throwing money at all kinds of other road projects and conjuring up obstacle after obstacle to block any funding of Translink to get this job done. I'm very hopeful that the new government will break the logjam and get things moving again.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
As much as I'm an advocate of transit and have complained in the past about how much money we've spent on road projects, it's hard for me to disagree on him on this point. Although the Patullo is Translink's responsibility, it's the previous Provincial government who was throwing money at all kinds of other road projects and conjuring up obstacle after obstacle to block any funding of Translink to get this job done. I'm very hopeful that the new government will break the logjam and get things moving again.
OMG someone not hating on Corrigan?!? That's one for the record books!

As much as some people might think I'm anti-ride hailing, I'm not. There are good things to say about it, esp with the state of taxi service here. It's just the idea that people are going to take infrequent transit and then use it for the last part of their trip is ridiculous.

The Province removed tolls that would have helped pay for much needed transportation projects - and of course they won't offer additional money to make up for that (their now 40% share doesn't count - they're only offering that as the Feds and the other parties said that's how much they'll contribute). Is it any wonder the Mayors are flailing around looking for money wherever they can.
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  #111  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 1:27 AM
WBC WBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
OMG someone not hating on Corrigan?!? That's one for the record books!
The gong show continues. Given the amount of political dysfunction it is actually amazing that we have a Transit system this good.

And as far as mobility pricing goes, given how quickly things get thrown under a bus (see bridge tolls) when the elections come, whoever introduces provincial bill to enable road pricing will commit instant political suicide. That is why NDP has already started to backtrack on this.
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  #112  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 2:34 AM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Originally Posted by WBC View Post
The gong show continues. Given the amount of political dysfunction it is actually amazing that we have a Transit system this good.

And as far as mobility pricing goes, given how quickly things get thrown under a bus (see bridge tolls) when the elections come, whoever introduces provincial bill to enable road pricing will commit instant political suicide. That is why NDP has already started to backtrack on this.
Ditto!

Too many chiefs bickering and hence nothing gets done. The Canada Line and PMB are government projects and that is why they simply got done!!
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  #113  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2018, 9:32 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Here is a vote killer. I can't see Horgan approving this after getting rid of tolls.


VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – Less than five months after BC’s NDP government eliminated bridge tolls, an independent commission on mobility pricing is looking at bringing them back.

The 10-month, $2.3 million commission is tasked with finding ways to pay for Metro Vancouver’s transportation infrastructure while reducing traffic congestion and addressing concerns about fairness.

Its first report, released today, lists two options for further study after months of consultations with over 6,000 residents and stakeholders.

The first involves charging drivers at so-called congestion points, like bridges.

“I wouldn’t say it’s the same as a return to bridge tolls, but it’s something which is conceptually quite similar that is going to be applied looking at where and when there is congestion and how you might address that,” says Daniel Firth, the commission’s executive director.

The second option being considered is to charge based on distance, time, and location travelled.

“There’s some good examples just south of the border here in Washington and Oregon doing trials with similar kinds of technology, so we’ll be looking at the kind of things they’ve done and see what we can learn from that,” he adds.

The commission’s final report will be tabled in the Spring. It will ultimately be up to Translink’s Mayors’ Council and the provincial government to implement the recommendations.
Canadian Taxpayers Federation calls for referendum

Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) BC director Kris Sims, who was one of the stakeholders consulted by the mobility pricing commission, says we’ve been down this road before.

“Unfortunately I think this is just going to turn out to be the same thing we had with the bridge tolls where they set these prices high, it punishes people for driving… and it winds up becoming politically toxic, and then they scramble and try to fix it later,” she says.

Sims argues that Metro Vancouver drivers are already paying the highest gas prices in North America, including a per-litre transit tax, plus a special transit tax on parking.

Rather than adding on more fees, the CTF is calling on governments to display more fiscal responsibility when it comes to transportation funding. Failing that, Sims is calling for a public plebiscite on new mobility costs.

“If they’re still insisting on tolls at these bridges and tunnels, or fee-per-kilometre, we want a vote. If they want to take more of our money, we want a vote,” she says.

In a 2015 referendum, Metro Vancouver voters shot down a 0.5 per cent sales tax to help fund major infrastructure projects.
Final recommendations likely to be dead on arrival: transportation expert

Gordon Price, a fellow with the Simon Fraser University Centre for Dialogue, doesn’t see either of the commission’s options gaining much traction with municipal elections coming this fall.

“Certainly, municipal politicians really don’t want to get into anything that looks like a highly visible new tax on the road, and I think the NDP themselves have to really clarify just what it is they’re prepared to accept,” he says.

Price says for a commission premised on looking to the future, the ideas being presented seem to be stuck in the past. He suggests what might be more useful is a broader policy framework that includes emerging transportation options like Uber.

“Until the province… is prepared to take some of the political responsibility for some kind of regional charging, then I just don’t see this moving very much,” he adds.

Premier John Horgan says he’s waiting for the commission’s final report to be tabled before commenting on their recommendations.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2018, 9:41 PM
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These charges are meant to replace the gas tax. They really need to start making that known better.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2018, 9:48 PM
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That is right! The government is a partner in this issue & we need to know where they stand. Hopefully they will not agree to another Translt Referendum.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2018, 11:09 PM
Sheba Sheba is offline
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) BC director Kris Sims, who was one of the stakeholders consulted by the mobility pricing commission, says we’ve been down this road before.
Meet the new Jordan Bateman...
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  #117  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2018, 11:15 PM
idunno idunno is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
These charges are meant to replace the gas tax. They really need to start making that known better.
^THIS.

I was wondering if this is expected to be the case, as I have also heard nothing about it in these slightly fear-mongering articles.

In my discussions with family and friends, the fact that this would replace the gas tax and merely 'redistribute the cost of driving' rather than 'ADD A NEW TAX OMG,' is the thing that tends to make them understand and agree with mobility pricing in general.
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  #118  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2018, 3:41 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
These charges are meant to replace the gas tax. They really need to start making that known better.
That seems to be a stretch, sure they're looking at everything that goes into the current system and developing a new system. Note how more electric cars hits the fuel tax system of mobility taxing.

Quote:
Fuel tax revenues are in decline – and today they account for around a
quarter of regional revenues
Metro Vancouver’s regional fuel tax – set at $0.17/L of fuel consumed – has historically performed
well as a secure form of revenue for transit and transportation investment, where it currently
generates about $340 million per year. However, with recent improvements in the fuel efficiency
of newer vehicles, as well as the penetration of electric vehicles into the market, there is a
growing concern that this revenue source is no longer as stable as it once was. Put simply, if all
the vehicles registered or passing through Metro Vancouver changed to electric vehicles, revenue
from the fuel tax would be $0. Therefore, all other things being equal, a higher proportion of fuel
efficient and electric vehicles amongst the fleet leads to lower revenue from the fuel tax.
Recent evidence from Metro Vancouver (King and Fox, 2015) reveals a decoupling between the
usage of roads (measured by vehicle kilometres travelled, VKT) and the revenues from the fuel
tax over recent years. This is illustrated in Figure 5.1. This concern has also been identified by our
neighbours in the US, where currently up to 14 States from the west are researching, testing, and
implement
https://www.itstimemv.ca/uploads/1/0...r_-_oct_24.pdf
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  #119  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2018, 5:38 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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^ Yup. Paying both taxes is still a possibility:

Quote:
The first scenario, called congestion point charges, would require drivers to pay when they drive through particularly busy sections of road, like bridges or tunnels. It could also involve ‘cordon charges,’ where drivers have to pay to enter particular zones.

The second scenario, called distance-based charges, means drivers pay for the distance they travel and they could pay more during peak times, such as rush hour.

The earliest drivers could have to pull out their wallets for mobility pricing is 2021, according to the independent commission’s chair, Allan Seckel.

The commission aims to come up with a model that both reduces traffic congestion and raises funds for transportation projects, while ensuring no one group of residents have to pay more than their fair share of the bill.

Seckel, acknowledged the challenge.

“Whatever is implemented needs to be affordable and it needs to be fair.”

He added it was too early to predict whether mobility pricing would replace Metro Vancouver’s transit levy ($0.17/litre) on gas or whether the two would co-exist.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2018, 6:22 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
Here is a vote killer. I can't see Horgan approving this after getting rid of tolls.
There seems to be a lot of complaints about congestion on the Port Mann now that the tolls have been removed - so I think this could be sold if it was packaged correctly.

If they go the bridge tolling route then the key would be to (a) sell it as congestion relief, (b) apply it to all the crossings so that it's seen as fair, and (c) to price it lower than the previous tolls. That combination could well work.

For per-distance travel they could start with voluntary trials and then develop a strategy based on the results. If they're careful to promote it as revenue-neutral then it could work - the carbon tax proved that that's a strategy that works. (Of course after the implementation they could screw us over, but hey - that's true of all the other taxes too).
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