Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Concerning LRT related traffic issues, here is an example of complaints about congestion caused by LRT level crossings in Edmonton. http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/11/0...-main-priority

And just as I predicted, they're occurring along a busy arterial with busy cross streets where coordinating trains and vehicle turning movements becomes difficult. I wouldn't have designed an at-grade LRT line along 111 St in Edmonton either and they probably should have gone under University Ave. On the other hand, the rest of the run along 114 St should work fine. In Calgary, the new West LRT along 17th Ave goes across some cross streets and under others. They take a pragmatic approach and consider the context rather than dogmatically demand that everything from pedestrian crossings to freeways be treated the same way.

There are many other references to this issue in Edmonton media. In fact, the opening of the current extension has been delayed by months because they are having trouble coordinating rail signals and traffic lights.

Interesting, because what I read is that the issue is in the tunnel where the new line joins the existing operational line as well as upgrading the entire signalling system. Apparently the contractor is also working on our system, which I assume to be the O-Train since the Confederation Line isn't anywhere near to installing signalling, so, yippee for us.

http://edmonton.ca/transportation/et...lrt-study.aspx
http://edmonton.ca/transportation/Me...AQOct92014.pdf

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Did you post the wrong article by accident? That's just a bunch of non-specific complaints about design elements, not complaints about traffic.

On the contrary, there are specific reference to 111th, 113th and University Avenue and a specific mall, which I expect is the same area. Other articles also make reference to the same issue near the University as well.

Regardless, my point is that you cannot have level crossings with trains running from day one on average every 100 seconds. Exactly when will traffic be moving? You also have to give warnings and barriers have to come down.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Haven't we been talking about more sound barriers being installed along the O-Train corridor?

Amazingly enough at a switch for the new passing track, so not too surprising.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Dado

Interesting, because what I read is that the issue is in the tunnel where the new line joins the existing operational line as well as upgrading the entire signalling system. Apparently the contractor is also working on our system, which I assume to be the O-Train since the Confederation Line isn't anywhere near to installing signalling, so, yippee for us.

http://edmonton.ca/transportation/et...lrt-study.aspx
http://edmonton.ca/transportation/Me...AQOct92014.pdf

Thales is the contractor for the Confederation Line, and as far as I am aware has nothing to do with the existing O-Train upgrades. The LRT signalling is an integral part of the entire system, so Thales should be hard at work on it by now.

[lrt's friend]

Sounds like signalling can be a major problem. For a project that we were led to believe would be operational shortly after the summer 2013 O-Train shutdown, we seem to be running a tad behind schedule. But it really doesn't matter because it doesn't properly address the need to move passengers downtown anyways.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Sounds like signalling can be a major problem. For a project that we were led to believe would be operational shortly after the summer 2013 O-Train shutdown, we seem to be running a tad behind schedule. But it really doesn't matter because it doesn't properly address the need to move passengers downtown anyways.

That would be impossible on that corridor anyway, unless a second tunnel is built.

[Luker]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Haven't we been talking about more sound barriers being installed along the O-Train corridor?

Lived on Breezehill North between Loretta and Gladstone from Nov 1996 - March 2014 and have never heard the O-train. I do hear the muffled sound of the Queensway at all times though.

Also for the record, my room faced east directly towards the tracks... Also, closer to the tracks then I am the 417 with its imposing sound barrier... What gives?

[McC]

you can definitely hear the O-Train where the tracks are at the same grade as Breezehill, north of Somerset, and it's moving pretty slowly at that point.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by McC

you can definitely hear the O-Train where the tracks are at the same grade as Breezehill, north of Somerset, and it's moving pretty slowly at that point.

MAinly because the O-Train is Diesel... The LRT isnt, which reduces sound exponentially, expecially with seamless track instead of the segmented pieces.

[Kitchissippi]

Steel wheels on steel rails also creates a deep, low frequency rumble that seems to travel downwards and sideways. In the lower level galleries at the AGO in Toronto you can tell if there's a streetcar passing the building because of the vibration. There's probably rubberized or energy absorbing ballast that can mitigate that.

[Dado]

I've noticed that in Edmonton the tracks on the new south line are set about a foot or so below nominal grade between low concrete walls or curbs on the sides of the RoW. I suspect this is a noise mitigation measure to combat the phenomenon you're describing.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Dado

Oh there's a whole other story here.

The sound walls originate in the time when the O-Train ran on jointed tracks. All the Transport 2000 types told the City to put in continuous rail, but no, the City's own experts decided that sound walls would suffice. But of course they didn't. So the welded rail was installed in the end and the problem went away.

And lrt's friend's claim that all residences along the O-Train have sound walls is false: those on Breezehill Ave near Bayview, which were built after the CWR was installed, don't have a sound wall. The ones on Sawmill Private near Confederation Heights also don't have a sound wall.

There is a sound wall being built behind the homes on Sawmill Private right now.

I think the reason for this is that there is some kind of vibration/noise caused when the trains pass through the new switches for the passing tracks.

Regarding the welded/continuous rails... these weren't installed to reduce noise; they were installed because it was required to increase train speeds to reach 15 minute frequency. Before this was done, the O-Train ran at 20 minute frequency.

[Dado]

True, and they were urged to do it from the outset for that reason, but it is also true that the City was told that laying welded rail would negate the noise issues from jointed rail as well and thereby avoid a need to put up sound walls.

[MoreTrains]

I found this while perusing through my Facebook. It is what alot of people are arguing for but goes into alot more detail than I have previosuly seen. Major problems I see, obviously, is the integration into the Trillium Line and then the proposal to integrate both into the DTT, and there is no way to connect with Tunneys which alot would agree is almost a necessity based on the workforce that travels to and from there.

http://unpublishedottawa.com/letter/...t-design-study

[Luker]

Originally Posted by McC

you can definitely hear the O-Train where the tracks are at the same grade as Breezehill, north of Somerset, and it's moving pretty slowly at that point.

Agreed, I hear the O-train all the time when walking along or near Tom Brown Arena, and near the 'new' Breezehill North development (Townhomes to the west of Bayview approach)... However, never a peep on proper Breezehill North.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

I found this while perusing through my Facebook. It is what alot of people are arguing for but goes into alot more detail than I have previosuly seen. Major problems I see, obviously, is the integration into the Trillium Line and then the proposal to integrate both into the DTT, and there is no way to connect with Tunneys which alot would agree is almost a necessity based on the workforce that travels to and from there.

http://unpublishedottawa.com/letter/...t-design-study

I read that report way back in 2008 or so, and still have it as a scanned pdf. It was prepared by Morrison Renfrew and he submitted it to all manner of unrelated EA studies.

Unfortunately he never included any cross section drawings in his report nor did he describe at all well how he would lay it out. In particular I found this claim to be disingenuous in the extreme: "Additional land take will be required in a few locations, and there may be a loss of one road traffic lane in some sections." (s.3(a)). I mean seriously. We're talking outright removal of at least one lane per direction, and that's before we work out what to do with station platforms and turning lanes.

Councillors Doucet and Leadman basically adopted it, Doucet I think because he, for reasons best known unto himself, wanted to get rid of the O-Train, and Leadman because it moved the line to a corridor with less [presumed] nimby resistance.

[lrt's friend]

Regardless of any comments of noise mitigation, I cannot see any possibility of surface operations of LRT along Byron that will be acceptable to the community. We need to prepare for the cost of a subway through this section.

[Kitchissippi]

Aren't the sewers through this section of Richmond are due for replacement? Maybe some savings could be found in coordinating it with a shallow cut-and-cover tunnel. I think the clearance needed inside the tunnel is about 16 feet, and I recall the digging under the village strip to be much deeper than that.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regardless of any comments of noise mitigation, I cannot see any possibility of surface operations of LRT along Byron that will be acceptable to the community. We need to prepare for the cost of a subway through this section.

Since when does the 'community' decide what's built? It's time we as a city learn to ignore these people and go with what's best for the city as a whole. A shallow berm will keep the trains out of sight & hearshot of the people nearby and has a minimal cost. A full bored tunnel is an extra billion dollars, roughly, and 'community' concerns for only a few thousand people cannot justify that expense. When you do the math that would come out to spending something like $20,000 per person in Kitchissippi Ward. Not fair to everybody else.

And seriously, who can stop us? Watson could easily get a council majority for a shallow berm across Byron Park. Leiper and the inner city people would probably vote against it, and Watson would probably lose votes in the area, but the rest of the city with its 90% of the voters wouldn't give a damn. NCC can't stop us, OMB can't. Let them cry.

God. First Scott Street then this. I wonder if we shouldn't just expropriate the whole damn ward and kick all these whiny nuts out. Would make building up this city so much easier.

[waterloowarrior]

Aerial photo from 1965 (maps.ottawa.ca). Is that a berm on the north side of Rochester Field?