Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I grew up in Richmond, and you honestly feel like you're being excluded from your own city

to be ideologically pure (but un-pragmatically honest) about things, the proper rejoinder would be "you are. and there is no problem with that."

feeling excluded on the basis of language (and/or culture, by extension) represents an attachment to non-essential things that is ultimately related to the sort of ethno-cultural "centrism" that creates pre-modern orders, with all of their unpleasant particularities and outgrowths.

essentially, people are moving to richmond from other countries because they are seeking opportunity (an essential thing) and because it is good for the economy (an essential thing).

it is good for the economy because most western countries have low birth rates, which are themselves the outgrowth of individual-centric sexual and reproductive practices (an essential thing).

ideally, the proper reaction would be to recognize your exclusion as an inevitable outgrowth of essential things and adapt to it by either learning the language in question or migrating to another area.

this process, as a whole, represents the evolution of your culture and region (an essential, or at least unavoidable, thing) and as such must be entered into with goodwill.

i mean, nobody actually lives like this, but that's probably because we're just not up to speed yet.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just curious: if you share these views do you get roundly accused of being racist, intolerant or backward by people who've got the "groupthink" in Vancouver or is there a legitimate debate of ideas taking place?

Constantly, I've even been called a nazi on a few occasions. That's why it's such a difficult topic to bring up here: we are so focused on our multicultural, cosmopolitan image that anybody with a more conservative viewpoint on immigration or language laws is just immediately labeled a racist, as if there's no in between.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

to be ideologically pure (but un-pragmatically honest) about things, the proper rejoinder would be "you are. and there is no problem with that."

feeling excluded on the basis of language (and/or culture, by extension) represents an attachment to non-essential things that is ultimately related to the sort of ethno-cultural "centrism" that creates pre-modern orders, with all of their unpleasant particularities and outgrowths.

essentially, people are moving to richmond from other countries because they are seeking opportunity (an essential thing) and because it is good for the economy (an essential thing).

it is good for the economy because most western countries have low birth rates, which are themselves the outgrowth of individual-centric sexual and reproductive practices (an essential thing).

ideally, the proper reaction would be to recognize your exclusion as an inevitable outgrowth of essential things and adapt to it by either learning the language in question or migrating to another area.

this process, as a whole, represents the evolution of your culture and region (an essential, or at least unavoidable, thing) and as such must be entered into with goodwill.

i mean, nobody actually lives like this, but that's probably because we're just not up to speed yet and are still shedding our dark-age habits.

I shouldn't have to adapt to a non-local culture. I was born in Ukraine and moved to Canada for all of the reasons you mentioned above, except I learned English and embraced the North American culture and lifestyle. I guess I just don't see why other cultures can't do the same.

[SignalHillHiker]

Perhaps it was a necessity for you and not for them. I assume it's not terribly difficult for someone to immigrate from China, settle in whatever city in B.C., and live their lives without adapting at all. Just about everything they need is available in their language and there are enough supports in place to help them through whatever things aren't, such as dealing with the government.

Does that exist for Ukrainians in B.C.? Is the community large enough?

It's a bit like moving to Ukraine as an ethnic Russian or a Newfoundlander. One of those won't have to integrate at all if they choose not to do so. And it's not me.

[kool maudit]

i didn't say you should. personally, i have no idea what to do with all this. i am a modern through-and-through, i just don't have much faith in it.

i am just pointing out that the above represents the carrying of a certain narrative (represented earlier in this thread by the "language is not an important thing" claim) to its logical end.

its logical end has little in common with any society to be found in history, but i guess this very newness is the appeal.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Constantly, I've even been called a nazi on a few occasions. That's why it's such a difficult topic to bring up here: we are so focused on our multicultural, cosmopolitan image that anybody with a more conservative viewpoint on immigration or language laws is just immediately labeled a racist, as if there's no in between.

It's legitimate to tighten controls on immigration numbers and impose more stringent requirements on immigrants. But to date, that hasn't happened. You can't in good faith tell Chinese immigrants that they can come here and speak their language and then all of a sudden start passing civic ordinances banning Chinese-only signs because there isn't enough English signage down at the strip mall.

[SignalHillHiker]

Canada has welcomed them under false pretenses before.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Perhaps it was a necessity for you and not for them. I assume it's not terribly difficult for someone to immigrate from China, settle in whatever city in B.C., and live their lives without adapting at all. Just about everything they need is available in their language and there are enough supports in place to help them through whatever things aren't, such as dealing with the government.

Does that exist for Ukrainians in B.C.? Is the community large enough?

It's a bit like moving to Ukraine as an ethnic Russian or a Newfoundlander. One of those won't have to integrate at all if they choose not to do so. And it's not me.

Oh absolutely it was much more essential for me to learn English than for Chinese people. There is no way I could get by here speaking only Russian. You could honestly be born in Richmond, only learn Chinese and get by fine your entire life. I don't actually care that lots of people here can't speak English, you get used to it, but I wish that didn't mean that non-Chinese speakers are unable to fully participate in the city. Since over 50% of the city is Chinese, if they want to have Chinese signs, that's fine, just put English on it too so I know what's going on.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's legitimate to tighten controls on immigration numbers and impose more stringent requirements on immigrants. But to date, that hasn't happened. You can't in good faith tell Chinese immigrants that they can come here and speak their language and then all of a sudden start passing civic ordinances banning Chinese-only signs because there isn't enough English signage down at the strip mall.

Sure you can. If I was in charge of such a thing, I could say "Welcome to Canada, you are free to practice your own culture and religion, and if you start a business you are free to display it in any language you like, but please respect the local community and include English on any signage as well." I don't see how this could in any way be seen as offensive or oppressing.

EDIT: Seems pretty reasonable to me that immigrants would have to somewhat accommodate the existing population. You can't expect to move to a different place and impose your own culture on the rest. If that's the plan, why immigrate at all?

[kool maudit]

in any society from ancient ur to canada in about 1990, it would have seemed like the most progressive, welcoming idea ever created. it would have been at the absolute cutting edge of tolerance and openness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Constantly, I've even been called a nazi on a few occasions. That's why it's such a difficult topic to bring up here: we are so focused on our multicultural, cosmopolitan image that anybody with a more conservative viewpoint on immigration or language laws is just immediately labeled a racist, as if there's no in between.

Interesting you chose the word conservative. Aren't the people who move to another, foreign country and yet continuing the ways of the old country fairly rigorously, not "conserving" something as well? So they are conservative too.

Is it more progressive and forward-looking to want newcomers, regardless of origin, to engage with the host society and become part of it, or to have them encouraged to set up a parallel existence modelled on the old country? I think I know the answer I would give but not sure everyone would agree.

Interesting how are definitions seem to be all screwed up. (Not you GlassCity BTW.)

[SignalHillHiker]

It's just easier, I think, not to integrate if you have the population to do it. And it may be what they want.

When they picture their lives in Canada, do newcomers from China imagine living in ethnically mixed neighbourhoods? Speaking English with their new rainbow-coloured friends? Or do they picture Richmond?

I imagine most of them want to settle down into the type of lifestyle they now have, where they can be themselves in a country that offers something they felt they couldn't get at home.

It's the same with any group, even if the cultural differences are less dramatic.

I doubt there are many rural Newfoundlanders in Alberta who could name a sport at the Stampede, or line-dance in a country club, or care much about a Liberal federal government, or watch football, or take up outdoor winter sports. They're just not. They're having their kitchen parties, events at community centres, and spending weekend evenings in dingy pubs and still keeping their foggy, indoor culture. And that's simply because there's enough of them to do it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

It's just easier, I think, not to integrate if you have the population to do it. And it may be what they want.

When they picture their lives in Canada, do newcomers from China imagine living in ethnically mixed neighbourhoods? Speaking English with their new rainbow-coloured friends? Or do they picture Richmond?

I imagine most of them want to settle down into the type of lifestyle they now have, where they can be themselves in a country that offers something they felt they couldn't get at home.

It's the same with any group, even if the cultural differences are less dramatic.

.

We all do it. People like "us" certainly congregate when abroad. Especially in the absence of a spouse that's part of the local national group.

And when we do it, make no mistake: we get criticized by the locals for doing it too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

in any society from ancient ur to canada in about 1990, it would have seemed like the most progressive, welcoming idea ever created. it would have been at the absolute cutting edge of tolerance and openness.

Yes, it was not really that long ago that not chasing anyone who was different out of town was a huge evolutionary leap for most people. It still exists in some parts of the world.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, it was not really that long ago that not chasing anyone who was different out of town was a huge evolutionary leap for most people. It still exists in some parts of the world.

i kind of agree and kind of don't.

on one level, most humans who have ever lived have lived in a fashion we would consider xenophobic. this, i think, is absolutely true.

on the other hand, i am wary of models that over-praise our own society's achievements relative to historic models because

a) it's dangerous to think that you are somehow a natural end-point of history, or are beyond history in a fundamental sense.

and

b) it's not over yet. the great experiment of the globalist west will not necessarily end well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

i kind of agree and kind of don't.

on one level, most humans who have ever lived have lived in a fashion we would consider xenophobic. this, i think, is absolutely true.

on the other hand, i am wary of models that over-praise our own society's achievements relative to historic models because

a) it's dangerous to think that you are somehow a natural end-point of history, or are beyond history in a fundamental sense.

and

b) it's not over yet. the great experiment of the globalist west will not necessarily end well.

Agreed. That wasn't necessarily the point I was trying to make. You probably know I don't think we've found "THE TRUTH" in our era that all previous ones were apparently looking for.

There are likely things that we do today and consider normal (like sitting by and allowing a huge number of the world's children to die of disease or malnutrition) that will appear as barbaric to our descendants as some old practices appear to us today.

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't think it will end particularly badly because the scale of it is just so large - but I do think the style of anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe will grow here as well. I'm not sure where the Us and Them lines will be drawn... but that's all that's left for Canada to do, develop an Us. It'll probably be linguistic more than ethnic here, I assume. A rainbow of people all speaking English or French and united against the introduction of anything else.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I don't think it will end particularly badly because the scale of it is just so large - but I do think the style of anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe will grow here as well. I'm not sure where the Us and Them lines will be drawn... but that's all that's left for Canada to do, develop an Us. It'll probably be linguistic more than ethnic here, I assume. A rainbow of people all speaking English or French and united against the introduction of anything else.

Even those who are most adamant about not being an "us" are nonetheless on the road to forming one. They just haven't seen the exit sign yet.

[rousseau]

Chinese only signs are all over the place in Markham, too, as well as Toronto's other numerous Chinatowns, but you don't hear of any grassroots movements in protest.

Which is interesting, given that the Chinese enclave in Markham is Canada's most Chinese neighbourhood. I think this may be due to proportional numbers in the GTA as a whole, in that no one ethnic group is much of a "threat." You've got Markham, Canada's most Chinese area, and Brampton, Canada's most South Asian area, and while there are certainly probably long-time white Canadian residents who might quibble with how their cities/neighbourhoods have changed, on the whole people are probably now resigned to the overwhelming ethnic makeup of those places, and self-select in the neighbourhoods they choose to live in.

It's not ghettoization per se. It's self-segregation. Something that long-term residents are less happy about, obviously. I'm sympathetic, but I'm not sure how to reconcile my own liberal ideals about freedom of movement with the need to protect heritage. It's a tough one.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I don't think it will end particularly badly because the scale of it is just so large - but I do think the style of anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe will grow here as well. I'm not sure where the Us and Them lines will be drawn... but that's all that's left for Canada to do, develop an Us. It'll probably be linguistic more than ethnic here, I assume. A rainbow of people all speaking English or French and united against the introduction of anything else.

immigration is a relatively small and approachable aspect of globalism. the greater issue relates to resource control, supply-chains and the like. the doctrine of human interchangeability and a global culture is just something to reduce friction among the end-level actors.

issues relating to commodities are more likely to be the ones whose violence blows back towards the imperial centers.

but that's really a whole other conversation.