Portland Metro Freeway/Highway/Roads News and Discussions

[Okstate]

What's wrong with Newberg to Woodburn on 219? I have driven it a multitude of times & you can fly on that highway.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Okstate

What's wrong with Newberg to Woodburn on 219? I have driven it a multitude of times & you can fly on that highway.

219 is a N-S route, not an E-W route. It's fine if you are going from Woodburn (or Salem) to Newberg, but that's it. If you're in the Portland area trying to get to McMinnville or the beach, it's useless. Plus it does nothing to bypass the bottleneck in the Dundee area.

[JoshYent]

It definitely NEEDS to happen........To some degree or another, we need a East West route that is quicker than going through all of these towns at 25/35mph........

[2oh1]

...NEEDS to happen?

[NJD]

It definitely NEEDS to happen..

I disagree.

[Leo]

My experience with toll roads on the East Coast has been without exception negative. I’m glad this plan is being stopped in its tracks.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Leo

My experience with toll roads on the East Coast has been without exception negative. I’m glad this plan is being stopped in its tracks.

Why was it negative? Because you had to pay a toll? You do know your taxes pay for all of the non-toll roads as well, don't you? Freeways aren't free. You just don't see the cost because it's hidden in gas taxes and vehicle registration fees and....

Frankly, if you don't like toll roads, then don't use them. It's that simple. You don't HAVE to use the Golden Gate or Oakland Bay Bridges.... you can drive all the way around the bay through San Jose to get to SF. You don't HAVE to use the NJ Turnpike, you can take the back roads and take three times as long to go from Philly to NY.

If a private company wants to build this and generate revenue to cover the costs of maintaining it, let them. If there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't bother building it to begin with.

[Leo]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Why was it negative? Because you had to pay a toll? You do know your taxes pay for all of the non-toll roads as well, don't you? Freeways aren't free. You just don't see the cost because it's hidden in gas taxes and vehicle registration fees and....

Frankly, if you don't like toll roads, then don't use them. It's that simple. You don't HAVE to use the Golden Gate or Oakland Bay Bridges.... you can drive all the way around the bay through San Jose to get to SF. You don't HAVE to use the NJ Turnpike, you can take the back roads and take three times as long to go from Philly to NY.

If a private company wants to build this and generate revenue to cover the costs of maintaining it, let them. If there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't bother building it to begin with.

It's pretty naive to think that others don't know that taxes pay for roads. It's also naive to think that a company wouldn't build something if a market didn't exist for it. They do it all the time. They just go bankrupt (or get bailed out by the government). Just because some company thinks it can turn a profit doesn't make it true.

I don't like toll roads because I dislike stopping repeatedly to pay the tolls. I would rather pay for the road through my taxes. I would also rather pay for my sewer service through my taxes instead of using a pay-as-you-flush toilet in my home.

Building roads and sewer lines is not like making widgets. The cost that gets externalized to citizens is *much* larger.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Leo

It's pretty naive to think that others don't know that taxes pay for roads.

That's a good one.... you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that fact.

So, the extent of your "negative experience" with toll roads is the fact that you had to stop to pay the toll? Which took all of what, 10 seconds? Again, if you hate toll roads, you don't have to use them.

If you want to spend an hour or more getting to McMinnville versus the inconvenience of paying a dollar toll to get there in half the time, nobody's stopping you. Personally, I think sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is far more inconvenient than having to stop briefly to pay a toll, but I guess I'm just naive. Plus, I don't know if you've heard, but there's this state-of-the-art, new-fangled technology where you don't even have to stop to pay tolls, they can be paid electronically without even having to slow down. It's like magic.....

[pdxhome]

I would rather pay for the road through my taxes.

This is exactly why all our roads and other infrastructure in this country are are in poor condition. People have the perception that because they pay a gas tax and property taxes, licensing fees and income taxes, etc. that they are paying to have the best roads and bridges to drive on. In reality the costs from these taxes is only able to cover small portions of the total maintenece/rehabilitation needs, leaving even less money to pay for new roadways. Roadway construction/maintenence costs increase and very rarely decrease, and will always stay ahead of funding.

The best way to pay for a new roadway is either through a street utility tax, raise the gas tax to match modern construction costs or pay tolls.

[Leo]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

That's a good one.... you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that fact.

So, the extent of your "negative experience" with toll roads is the fact that you had to stop to pay the toll? Which took all of what, 10 seconds? Again, if you hate toll roads, you don't have to use them.

If you want to spend an hour or more getting to McMinnville versus the inconvenience of paying a dollar toll to get there in half the time, nobody's stopping you. Personally, I think sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is far more inconvenient than having to stop briefly to pay a toll, but I guess I'm just naive. Plus, I don't know if you've heard, but there's this state-of-the-art, new-fangled technology where you don't even have to stop to pay tolls, they can be paid electronically without even having to slow down. It's like magic.....

10 sec? Have you ever used the toll roads on the East Coast? Traffic routinely backs up for a half a mile or more. There's no such thing as magic.

The choice you're setting up between sitting in traffic for hours vs. paying a buck to arrive "like magic" is a false dichotomy. There's no guarantee you won't sit in front of a toll booth for hours. And there's no guarantee that the project won't be heavily subsidized by the government anyway, with all the profits going to the investors and executives and all the costs going to the taxpayers.

This particular company can't even get the land to build this road, and the supporters it claims to have won't even admit their support in public. If they can't even get their act together, I doubt they can build an effective transportation solution.

[Leo]

Originally Posted by pdxhome

This is exactly why all our roads and other infrastructure in this country are are in poor condition. People have the perception that because they pay a gas tax and property taxes, licensing fees and income taxes, etc. that they are paying to have the best roads and bridges to drive on. In reality the costs from these taxes is only able to cover small portions of the total maintenece/rehabilitation needs, leaving even less money to pay for new roadways. Roadway construction/maintenence costs increase and very rarely decrease, and will always stay ahead of funding.

The best way to pay for a new roadway is either through a street utility tax, raise the gas tax to match modern construction costs or pay tolls.

So ... just like me, you would rather pay for your roads with taxes?

I don't disagree that the cost of the new roads may exceed the income from taxes. But that's an argument for paying attention to arithmetic, not an argument for switching to a pay-per-use system.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Leo

10 sec? Have you ever used the toll roads on the East Coast?

Actually yes, I've lived in Central Jersey, Philly, Baltimore, Connecticut and Wash DC. I've probably used every toll road, bridge and tunnel in the Northeast/MidAtlantic. You learn how to avoid rush hours. Also, having a SpeedPass, or QuickPay (every state has their own name for it) allows you to bypass the lines.

I agree it's very unlikely this particular road will get built, for political reasons, not economic ones. But to vilify all toll roads because you don't like to wait is pretty short-sighted. Again, if you don't want to use a "pay-per-use" road, you don't have to. So what difference does it make to you if other people DO want to use it?

[Leo]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Actually yes, I've lived in Central Jersey, Philly, Baltimore, Connecticut and Wash DC. I've probably used every toll road, bridge and tunnel in the Northeast/MidAtlantic. You learn how to avoid rush hours. Also, having a SpeedPass, or QuickPay (every state has their own name for it) allows you to bypass the lines.

I agree it's very unlikely this particular road will get built, for political reasons, not economic ones. But to vilify all toll roads because you don't like to wait is pretty short-sighted. Again, if you don't want to use a "pay-per-use" road, you don't have to. So what difference does it make to you if other people DO want to use it?

It’s kind of like asking a question like “What do you care if they build a strip club next to your house?” In principle, it’s a free country, and if they can make money doing it, you could argue they should be free to do so. And you could make the argument that I don’t have to use it if I don’t want to, and that I shouldn’t interfere with people who do want to use it. But I still won’t like it, and I would be glad if something kept that business from opening.

The more particular answer is that building a pay-per-use road *guarantees* that no toll-free road will ever be built. And, I’m pretty sure that the toll road would end up being subsidized by my taxes anyway (either directly, or in the form of various corporate tax breaks for the company that builds it). So, as long as my taxes will be paying for it anyway, I’d rather pay a little more to get rid of the stopping for tolls.

Like you, I’ve spent most of my life in the Northeast. I go back at least once a year, and I still think toll roads are a PITA. Even with EZ Pass, I’d still rather pay for the road via taxes.

[pdxhome]

So ... just like me, you would rather pay for your roads with taxes?

I would love it if taxes adequatly covered the costs of roads. The reality is, to have taxes pay for roads we would probably need to pay $10-$12/gallon at the pump (maybe more) or impose a street utility tax or increase registration fees even more, etc. These taxing options are not possible for most jurisdictions in the US.

Without adequate funding through taxes, using tolls becomes the best option for funding a roadway project. It is it is a direct user cost, and you can actually mitigate driving habits through congestion pricing if desired.

[eric cantona]

i use the E-470 in Denver often and HWY-73 in Orange County on occasion, and based on my experiences there would wholeheartedly get behind a toll road in this location.

i get the sense that Leo doesn't have to travel to McMinnville or the central coast with much regularity. I do, and it can suuuuuck.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Leo

It’s kind of like asking a question like “What do you care if they build a strip club next to your house?”

No, it's NOTHING like asking that. Unless this road is going through your backyard, which is highly unlikely. Now if you object to strip clubs and toll roads on principle, no matter where they're located, (which is apparently the case) then fine. That's perfectly valid.

Originally Posted by Leo

The more particular answer is that building a pay-per-use road *guarantees* that no toll-free road will ever be built.

Well, I can guarantee that this road won't be built unless it IS a toll road. This is nowhere on ODOT's radar and they don't even want to address the congestion problem unless a outside party comes forward with a private plan. Then, and only then, they'll start talking about how this road would connect to publically owned roads.

[Leo]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

No, it's NOTHING like asking that. Unless this road is going through your backyard, which is highly unlikely. Now if you object to strip clubs and toll roads on principle, no matter where they're located, (which is apparently the case) then fine. That's perfectly valid.



Well, I can guarantee that this road won't be built unless it IS a toll road. This is nowhere on ODOT's radar and they don't even want to address the congestion problem unless a outside party comes forward with a private plan. Then, and only then, they'll start talking about how this road would connect to publically owned roads.

I didn't say "in my backyard." I said *next to my house*. On their own property. Just like the road.

I don't think you can give that guarantee. Things that are on the radar change. Otherwise, there would be no need for radar.

[deasine]

Kinda late, but what are toll roads where you have to stop and pay? Welcome to the 2010 everyone, modern day toll roads feature sensors and cameras that charge drivers.

[zilfondel]

Although I am against most new highways, I actually think this highway would be a good idea. It would really help the communities along 99W economically, particularly McMinnville, by giving them direct access to I-5.

However, I believe that we really need to aggressively improve passenger and freight rail along the I-5 and 99E & W corridors along with congestion charging, otherwise we'll have to "improve" I-5 to 4 or 5 lanes in each direction to meet the demand.