Calgary's $8 BILLION Transit Plan - The RouteAhead

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Thanks for the info.

I actually knew of the firststudent system but at the prices thay charge it didn't seem very "public" to me. Does the ticket purchased is it transferable to the local transit system or Calgary Transit or is it strickly a private enterprise affair?

Strickly private enterprise. It is reputed that the only way to get a seat on the first Student commuter buses or the southland commuter buses out of Cochrane is to purchase a monthly pass as the passes have a seating priority over single trips.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah. Even without the lower mainland add levy, gas in Revelstoke was in the mid to high $1.20s when I was there last week versus the low 0.90s in much of Alberta at the time. Excise, carbon tax, PST all add up.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Anyone know how the Vancouver area's TransLink or Toronto area's Metrolinx got started?

Those disfunctional agencies are not a model to follow. The best solution to regional tranportation issues would be annexation. It worked for Calgary in 60s.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Doug

Those disfunctional agencies are not a model to follow. The best solution to regional tranportation issues would be annexation. It worked for Calgary in 60s.

Far more challenging than transportation issues are regional land use issues. Sorting out the governance of the region has been very difficult.

I'm sure some think annexation is the ultimate solution.

[MalcolmTucker]

Regional planning is hard since you can develop plans and then have reality shift under you - a bedroom community can become self sufficient enough to move out of the CMA while a self sufficient community can move in the other direction.

With that do you want to apply the same governance model on communities that are very different? I couldn't tell you.

Personally focusing bedroom style communities onto pearls on a string rail line makes sense by creating new towns and giving towns room to grow that have access to infrastructure, or could much more easily in the future. Less well serviceable communities would have a different destiny.

It would require a huge up front investment, and the legalities of expropriation for value capture purposes are unclear, but having the government find a way to capture the value of lands for new towns may be a way to fund investment in things like regional rail.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by Doug

Those disfunctional agencies are not a model to follow. The best solution to regional tranportation issues would be annexation. It worked for Calgary in 60s.

Annexation is not politically feasible. Further, I don't want the entire set of policy goals for the City of Calgary (especially the urban core) to be increasingly subject to the decisions of ranchers and exurbanite NIMBYs, and I'm sure they aren't interested in having a bunch of latte sipping inner city dwellers tell them what to do. I prefer a Mayor Nenshi, rather than a Mayor Ford.

There is the need for a regional authority that has a high-level governance role in setting targets for land use and creating transportation projects, and in ensuring that everybody in the Calgary region pays their share and plays by the same rules, and sticks to the approved plans. I think there is a need for a single transit agency for the areas outside the City (for cost savings, if nothing else); whether it is a partner with Calgary Transit or a single agency for the entire region is something I haven't thought too much on.

[red_179]

According to routeahead.ca, the RouteAhead Strategic Plan will be presented to Council on March 4th. The full plan can be viewed here:

Part 1 - http://www.routeahead.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-0118StrategyAheadWeb1.pdf

Part 2 - www.routeahead.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-0118StrategyAheadWeb2.pdf

[Doug]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Annexation is not politically feasible. Further, I don't want the entire set of policy goals for the City of Calgary (especially the urban core) to be increasingly subject to the decisions of ranchers and exurbanite NIMBYs, and I'm sure they aren't interested in having a bunch of latte sipping inner city dwellers tell them what to do. I prefer a Mayor Nenshi, rather than a Mayor Ford.

Sure it's feasible. This isn't Edmonton. A forced annexation by the Province would not materially change provincial election results. The polarization and us vs. them mentality that plagues Toronto is what annexation would avoid. Fragmented municipalities are disfunctional and regional agencies that attempt to bridge the differences always fail as they lack accountability. Calgary's unicity victory in the 1960s was the best planning decision the area has ever made.

[Chadillaccc]

I find it complete bullshit that the city has relegated the 8th Avenue Subway to such a low priority in this plan. According to the revised data, they won't be considering it a priority until the municipality reaches 1.5 million. What a complete f*ck up.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I find it complete bullshit that the city has relegated the 8th Avenue Subway to such a low priority in this plan. According to the revised data, they won't be considering it a priority until the municipality reaches 1.5 million. What a complete f*ck up.

There's no money to pay for the SELRT and NC LRT, I think that something like the 8th Ave subway should be built after those 2 are taken care of. Remember this is Calgary, the heart of conservative country so people are always losing their minds about how high taxes are (even though they are actually quite low), so an increase to pay for this will make people go completely insane!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I find it complete bullshit that the city has relegated the 8th Avenue Subway to such a low priority in this plan. According to the revised data, they won't be considering it a priority until the municipality reaches 1.5 million. What a complete f*ck up.

Why? We have a 30% increase in capacity happening shortly. We have a bus corridor that is way over capacity (Centre Street) on one of two quadrants of the City that have no LRT service to speak of. We have 4 hospitals (FMC, ACH, South Health and RGH) and one post-secondary institution (MRU) that has no rapid transit access at all.

I agree that the 8th avenue subway is important, but relative to it's cost and the need for other transit infrastructure, I am not sold that it should be a top priority. If you think it is, tell me what then goes down on the priority list?

[technomad]

Given we're already looking at additional tax measures to pay for a NC/SE LRT line, I think rolling the 8th av subway into the project is key for selling the tax hit to the whole city.

This way everyone wins, brand new NC/SE line, NW/S gets subway and 5 car extension potential, and W/NE gets 7th ave to itself.

Also seems like it would be cheaper overall to get all the downtown tunnel work done at once.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

There's no money to pay for the SELRT and NC LRT, I think that something like the 8th Ave subway should be built after those 2 are taken care of. Remember this is Calgary, the heart of conservative country so people are always losing their minds about how high taxes are (even though they are actually quite low), so an increase to pay for this will make people go completely insane!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

There's no money to pay for the SELRT and NC LRT, I think that something like the 8th Ave subway should be built after those 2 are taken care of. Remember this is Calgary, the heart of conservative country so people are always losing their minds about how high taxes are (even though they are actually quite low), so an increase to pay for this will make people go completely insane!

And the 5th highest transit ridership per capita in North America.


LRT funding is a political winner in Calgary. Ask Bronco or Shane Keating.

[red_179]

Originally Posted by fusili

Why? We have a 30% increase in capacity happening shortly. We have a bus corridor that is way over capacity (Centre Street) on one of two quadrants of the City that have no LRT service to speak of. We have 4 hospitals (FMC, ACH, South Health and RGH) and one post-secondary institution (MRU) that has no rapid transit access at all.

I agree that the 8th avenue subway is important, but relative to it's cost and the need for other transit infrastructure, I am not sold that it should be a top priority. If you think it is, tell me what then goes down on the priority list?

I agree completely, the 8th Avenue subway is important, but the NC/SE line is far more important. We have to be realistic, the money isn't there to do everything at once.

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I find it complete bullshit that the city has relegated the 8th Avenue Subway to such a low priority in this plan. According to the revised data, they won't be considering it a priority until the municipality reaches 1.5 million. What a complete f*ck up.

Agreed. The problem is that the Stephen Avenue metro only benefits existing transit customers and therefore isn't as attractive politically to those who are making decisions. The city should throw a bone to the existing ridership and prioritize this over any new lines but unfortunately it will be on the back burner for a while.

[artvandelay]

Also, - I don't understand why the airport is shown as being serviced via the NE line? Do we really want to subject visitors to the city to a milk run through beautiful Northeast Calgary upon arrival to the city?

A spur from the North Central line would provide much faster access to downtown.

[technomad]

Doing the Stephen av subway when the 2st st tunnel for NC/SE is done throws that bone to the rest of the city.

And it get it gets the construction disruption over with in one shot.

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Agreed. The problem is that the Stephen Avenue metro only benefits existing transit customers and therefore isn't as attractive politically to those who are making decisions. The city should throw a bone to the existing ridership and prioritize this over any new lines but unfortunately it will be on the back burner for a while.

Nope, that's why HSR is the better way to link the airport.

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Also, - I don't understand why the airport is shown as being serviced via the NE line? Do we really want to subject visitors to the city to a milk run through beautiful Northeast Calgary upon arrival to the city?

A spur from the North Central line would provide much faster access to downtown.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Also, - I don't understand why the airport is shown as being serviced via the NE line? Do we really want to subject visitors to the city to a milk run through beautiful Northeast Calgary upon arrival to the city?

A spur from the North Central line would provide much faster access to downtown.

Not much different than the 'milk run' from JFK to Manhattan.

Land at JFK; take the AirTrain to Jamaica Station; take the Subway or Commuter rail to Manhattan. See all the sights and smells of New York trains without looking too touristy.

There used to be a "Train to the Plane" between Rockefeller Centre and JFK that I used every time I was there. The first time I went to NYC I was met by my cousin at the airport, and I was thoroughly impressed with the clean train waiting at the airport, smiling ticket vendors, room for luggage in the car, and a car attendant who had helpful touristy information.

This train only had two stops - JFK and Rockefeller Centre - but couldn't go any faster than the express subway train ahead of it.

Getting off at Rockefeller to change to a regular subway was a SHOCK! The clean "Train to the Plane" pulled away from the grungy Rockefeller platform and a regular graffitti-encrusted rust-bucket subway train pulled up. I must've had quite a look of horror on my face, because all my cousin did was laugh and say "welcome to new yawk. This ain't in Kansas, kid."

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by fusili

And the 5th highest transit ridership per capita in North America.


LRT funding is a political winner in Calgary. Ask Bronco or Shane Keating.

Ward 4 in 2013 provides a strange counter example. It might be awkward to develop NCLRT plans in the short term seeings how it would be over the objections of the alderman of much of the affected area.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Ward 4 in 2013 provides a strange counter example. It might be awkward to develop NCLRT plans in the short term seeings how it would be over the objections of the alderman of much of the affected area.

I disagree. While Chu does not want the LRT, much of his constituents do.