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  #101  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 12:57 AM
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
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The OMB was right. That said, the right course is for the city to amend the Official Plan to allow the development.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 3:05 PM
Luker Luker is offline
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Originally Posted by McC View Post
@Luker, yes there are appropriate scales for development where it becomes more efficient to do certain things, but you are arguing that these buildings have to be 14 storeys to acheive these efficiencies. However, how often do we hear (from developers and boosters around these parts) that a building can't be 14 storeys because that's not tall enough to get all the good things we want, therefore, it has to be... The argument makes no sense when divorced from the specific economics of the builder, the site and features envisaged, etc... Otherwise, 14 storeys can't be both perfectly efficient (here on pricey land in Westboro) and self-evidently inefficient, say on a much more marginal piece of land like 99 Parkdale. (I am not saying that 99 Parkdale should be 14 storeys, I like the design of that building at 28, but the argument there, from the same architect as this project, was that 14 storeys would be inefficient).

And guess what? There are efficiencies found in smaller buildings, too: fewer elevators (they spend less time in transit), wood frame construction, less costly digs for parking lots, no Section 37 extortion, speed to market (beating competition to sales, lower financing/carrying costs during a shorter project period, etc.)

By the way, the two buildings by the Metro (on Wellington, not Richmond), the Picadilly and the slightly off target Wellington-atIsland-Park, are both mixed use buildings, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make in your second paragraph.

As for the EcoCité gong show. Weren't those units sold initially? before the builder went bankrupt? it's their re-sale that isn't happening, and golly, can you blame people? I think the history of the builder is more to blame than the scale of the building for encouraging buyers to keep their distance. Domicile has no problem attracting buyers to smaller buildings, and designing these smaller building to a relatively high spec (not that I share their passion for beige and grey as a "colour" palette).

Lastly, it's pretty laughable to suggest that we're failing to redevelop Westboro "into vibrant , semi-dense (because were not atm), walk-able, mixed-used, communities," Westboro is certainly already those things. Hey, I think these two buildings, as designed would have made a positive contribution to the area, making it even more of those good things, but don't tell me that Westboro is doomed by their absence.

Are the developers and architects using simpleton arguments to their benefit as you first cited, sure. But that doesn't mean that there isn't large disparities between what simple economics and demand call for and what a 4-6 story squat building that isn't orientated towards modern demands and prospective owner expectations. Aside from loosing, the views, the architecture, the higher quality materials, improved sustainability, increased foliage on ground level.. You also don't create the circa 1960 tenant style floor plans with 20+ units on every floor and thus the increased pollution, crime (esp. b&e), vandalism, smell, parties/noise, unknown/trusted neighbours, etc. that come along with it.

Add on the supply and demand and lack of proper land use and housing stock is the final knockout blow, if you think we can build and fill in to Rockland in the east and Carlton place in the west than sure, but is are city, society, and country going to wake up and realized (just like are crummy water pipes bursting at half-life) that our ways of the past were often misguided and ill-suited for our current situation. If you just want to further short change yourself, citizenry, and neighborhood then protest for a 4 story Centropolis type building here than go for it, however the pros and cons of the two building are quite obvious, and their is little in the way of con other than its taller, and a shadow will fall at some point in the day for an hour on one of the ten houses that surround the property.

Well I guess we somewhat agree on the efficiency losses, you also include the efficiency 'improvements', built in minimalist, low quality structures, i.e., wood frame(fire / insurance problems), no elevators, rapid building and delivery, and even the loss of s.37 which I had meant to include as in my previous post. I don't see how those are beneficial to the prospective tenants/owners or neighbors.

Last, you laughably claim Westboro as an iconic walking enclave yet you fail to realize how many people are showing up by car from around town. If you want to get completely micro and look at the Richmond sidewalks and say, yes! there it is, side walks with people walking on them then sure its walk-able. But our inner-city transit, bicycle, and even sidewalks (width / design) aren't anything but average at best. Add in some more density and we'll see: segregated bicycle lanes up Scott to Churchill to Richmond westward; improved parkway connections; improved inner-city buses, tram, streetcar, lrt, etc. ; will drastically improve Richmond streets-cape as well; parking lanes filled as sidewalk that converts to parking on down times, i.e., what is being talked about for queen st post LRT and what is used on Granville st downtown Vancouver among other places;
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  #103  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 3:09 PM
Luker Luker is offline
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Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
The OMB was right. That said, the right course is for the city to amend the Official Plan to allow the development.
Agreed.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Luker View Post
Oh I am just absolutely delighted with this result; I am ecstatic this lot can now be filled to the edge with a communist era six story box made of stucco press-form
I see nothing in the OMB ruling that mandates that the building be ugly.

If the architects cannot design an attractive, efficient, site appropriate 6-story building, they shouldn't be in the business.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 7:43 PM
Luker Luker is offline
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Perhaps, attractiveness is subjective; it will certainly limit aspects and ideas due to a lack of vertical transgression area etc. Efficiency and sustainability, sure, the average is most likely at best, better than poorly and lacking supply of currently housing stock I suppose, but average Ottawa nonetheless. Moreover, as aforementioned in my previous post, there is many other variables at play and the potential for a lower quality and demanded (which isn't good for intensification or our city coffers and banks acts.
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  #106  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 1:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luker View Post
Well I guess we somewhat agree on the efficiency losses, you also include the efficiency 'improvements', built in minimalist, low quality structures, i.e., wood frame(fire / insurance problems), no elevators, rapid building and delivery, and even the loss of s.37 which I had meant to include as in my previous post. I don't see how those are beneficial to the prospective tenants/owners or neighbors.
The alleged s.37 benefits were cooked up by the developer and Councillor Hobbs in consultation with no one. One of the proposals was to put a chicane or street narrowing on Roosevelt, except between the councillor and the developer no one could be bothered to even check on Google Streetview to see if what they proposed was actually still possible: it isn't. Another developer had already got to the lot in front of which they wished to put a chicane and had put in a semi-detached house with a driveway right where the chicane would go.

Quote:
Last, you laughably claim Westboro as an iconic walking enclave yet you fail to realize how many people are showing up by car from around town. If you want to get completely micro and look at the Richmond sidewalks and say, yes! there it is, side walks with people walking on them then sure its walk-able. But our inner-city transit, bicycle, and even sidewalks (width / design) aren't anything but average at best. Add in some more density and we'll see: segregated bicycle lanes up Scott to Churchill to Richmond westward; improved parkway connections; improved inner-city buses, tram, streetcar, lrt, etc. ; will drastically improve Richmond streets-cape as well; parking lanes filled as sidewalk that converts to parking on down times, i.e., what is being talked about for queen st post LRT and what is used on Granville st downtown Vancouver among other places;
Umm, developing the Fendor site according to the proposal was not going to increase density any more than developing it as allowed. And we're more likely to get bicycle-using residents with the lower priced units you seem to eschew in favour of luxury condos with a view for the wealthy. The Metropole, for instance, has lots of density, but oddly enough the townhouses that surround it provide proportionately more transit use.

And Westboro was probably more walkable before the condo boom hit. Increased rents have pushed out two hardware stores, the fishmonger, driven the cobbler onto a sidestreet, got rid of the places doing appliance, electronics and car repair, and replacing it all with a string of outdoor equipment and clothing stores, restaurants and coffee shops.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 1:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
The OMB was right. That said, the right course is for the city to amend the Official Plan to allow the development.
There's no benefit to the City since the site is already contemplated for infill. The only benefit would be to the developer and that's not enough reason to make an OPA.

And frankly, why should the City go to this trouble at this point in time? After all, they had ample opportunity to promote these changes in the recent past.

Just where was Fendor when the CDP and Secondary Plan went through? They would have been invited and I believe one of the owners is even a local resident living just on the north side of the Transitway across the Roosevelt ped bridge (he routinely parks his power boats on city property on Workman and Lochaber, but I digress), so it's not like they were unaware of what was going on. If they had wanted to get their property upzoned, the case should have been made then and there (and I think a good case could be made for going as high as 10 & 12 storeys, since the shadows would be limited to the Transitway and not the houses beyond). Developers and landowners should understand that there are consequences to non-participation in CDPs and secondary plans.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 2:20 PM
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Listen, I agree with you and that there was better ways to try an implement and carry this project out in a more sensible fashion. Further, the S. 37 issues you raise as well as the developers claims to not being profitable are all unfortunate and could have been improved.

What I've really been saying (and am worried for) is more poor quality building using contemporary & modern standards, and I don't think that necessarily entails elite super rich high end condos. The difference between these two buildings will be the HUGE spatial massing of the building on the lot of land, a less desirable building inside and out (student ghetto like hallways with 20 units, lack of outdoor green-space, patio amenities etc) and a condo which will certainly not be an example of the best. Again economics do and will come into play and will limit and hurt the ins and outs of this project.

We've all pretty much agreed 4-6 isn't appropriate despite that being in the plan, its unfortunate, just as in the CDB there only so many develop-able lots for condominium scale projects so we must be cautious how we use them and what they reflect and how they define us.

Also, I work with the Glebe Business Association and theres nothing worse than hearing them making similar lambasted claims for their stores failures on: bad traffic, high rents, condos & intensification, the changing neighbourhood, lack of transit (while there commuting is constantly opposing improved frequencies) etc... My point being the business you mentioned have failed or are failing because they sell a product that very little or intrested in or can afford. Furthermore, lets be honest, the credit crunch of the last three and half years has been much worse to the businesses than any influx of mostly well-healed first time home buyers or retirees.
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  #109  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2012, 6:17 PM
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According to Gray's blog, developer is appealing the Ruling of the OMB while the Westboro NIMBY brigade are raising funds for Tuesday's OMB defense.

Hopefully, the appeal by the developper will be a sucess.

http://bulldogottawa.com/westboro-re...ence/#more-966
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  #110  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2012, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
According to Gray's blog, developer is appealing the Ruling of the OMB while the Westboro NIMBY brigade are raising funds for Tuesday's OMB defense.
Raising funds?

Couldn't that money be better used for charity - or something else that's worthwhile?
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  #111  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2013, 10:23 PM
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OMB motion to review granted... this thing ain't over yet
http://www.omb.gov.on.ca/e-decisions...an-17-2013.pdf
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  #112  
Old Posted May 8, 2013, 10:45 PM
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OPA to Council recommended for approval
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/view....s&fileid=59675
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  #113  
Old Posted May 14, 2013, 4:41 PM
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Just passed Planning Committee in a tight vote: 6-4.

Councillor Hobbs opted to oppose according to Reevely's livetweet:
Quote:
She thought the project fit with the plan. Now that it's shown it doesn't fit, she won't back it... "I'll be siding with the community today," she says.
(https://twitter.com/ReevelyLive2)
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 11:18 PM
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City and developer lose at the OMB... as always Denhez decisions make for a good read
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2014/...medium=twitter

Reduced to 7-8 floors (up to 40% of footprint can be 8 fl)
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 12:57 AM
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Uniform and City lose to OMB

One has to wonder whether Uniform will sell the property. This project has lost a lot of its glamour now that the height will be limited to 7 and exceptionally 8 storeys! I always loved their projects and hope they manage to build two quality towers on the site
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 1:43 AM
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There are some hard smacks to city staff in that doc! An early fave:
Quote:
The Board cannot agree with planning staff’s approach to the governing documents, or the role of maps. Section 1.1(d) of the Act specifies that it is a purpose of that statute “to provide for planning processes that are fair by making them open (and) accessible….” If the purpose of “planning” is for municipalities and stakeholders to know what is expected of them, then it is the antithesis of that purpose to suppose:

that readers of normal intelligence are incapable of reading a map,

that official documents do not mean what they say,

or that predictability is impossible without resorting to the subjective interpretations of a handful of insiders.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 3:07 AM
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 5:33 AM
m0nkyman m0nkyman is offline
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 2:38 PM
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Another good quote that will be relevant with the new OP and potential increase in OPAs for highrises.


[69] Parenthetically, the Board is not suggesting that such municipal analyses must be encyclopaedic. They need not even show any particular deference to previous planning arrangements. Indeed, notwithstanding the PPS direction that planning be “long-term”, the Province did not provide any mechanism for plans to have any staying power. That elicited some surprise among the neighbours, who argued that if “long-term plans” could be amended spontaneously, that would defeat their basic purpose, namely predictability. In Ontario, however, a municipality may undertake a multi-year revision of its OP, with volumes of research and consultations with thousands of residents – and even after appeals have been dismissed, any owner can still demand that the municipality change that OP at any time (with an appeal to the Board, if it does not do so within a specified time). That is how the government of the day designed the system many decades ago, and it has not changed.
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 3:51 AM
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OMB kills Westboro highrises; blasts city for approving ‘flawed’ plan

Board rules planning department OK’d Roosevelt Avenue project for ‘non-existent’ reasons

By David Reevely, OTTAWA CITIZEN February 21, 2014


OTTAWA — The city’s planners short-circuited public consultations and supported a developer’s plans to build two highrise towers in northwestern Westboro for no obvious reason, a devastating new Ontario Municipal Board ruling says.

In at least this specific case, according to the board, the city’s urban planning department did exactly what its critics accuse it of doing all the time: ignoring residents’ concerns and changing the rules to suit whatever builders want, pretending a major new project in a delicate neighbourhood could happen with just a technical tweak.

Uniform Urban Developments’ proposed project at 335 Roosevelt Ave. has been a soap opera for years. Boiled down, Uniform wanted to take a piece of land on the south side of the Transitway between Dominion and Westboro stations and construct 16- and 14-storey towers on it, instead of the wider, lower buildings that a specific plan for the neighbourhood called for. The taller towers would have the same number of units but they’d be slimmer and nicer-looking and would leave a lot more open space at ground level.

Yes, the neighbours said, but they’d loom over our houses. We don’t want them next door or down the block. And there’s a bigger point: These taller buildings are not what’s in the plan for our area, so why are you approving them?

“It goes much beyond our own community. It extends to the whole city,” said Gay Stinson, one of the group of residents that challenged the project. They raised $35,000 for the case and relied on discounts from lawyers and planners — including the city’s own former planning policy chief Dennis Jacobs, who’s now a freelance planning consultant.

They raise a great question, the ruling from OMB member Marc Denhez says, and the city’s planners didn’t seem to have an answer for it: “Though staff addressed many individual components of the project, the rationale for changing the mid-rise skyline itself was not just flawed; it was non-existent,” Denhez writes. “That slate was blank; and although it could have been corrected at the [OMB] hearing, it was not.”

There’s “essentially no visible indication” that the city’s planners spent any time thinking about their own policies when they decided Uniform should be allowed go ahead, Denhez finds. That won’t do.

It gets worse. The city’s lead planner charged with assessing Uniform’s project, Douglas James, had the file but sat on it for months, until Uniform got an automatic right to take it to the OMB because the city blew a legal deadline for making a decision, Denhez found. The project was probably going to end up in front of the board (which can overrule city councils’ decisions) anyway, but James’s handling of it meant the city didn’t bother with the public meetings and consultations that would have normally given residents a chance to have their say.

This serene disregard for what anybody except the professionals thought carried on in the city’s insistence that the planning documents describing what was allowed needed to be interpreted in a complicated way. Some of them conflicted and it’s true they needed to be sorted out, Denhez writes. But a map that seemed to clearly show what was allowed and what wasn’t? The planners just threw that out.

Denhez’s ruling is withering: “If the purpose of ‘planning’ is for municipalities and stakeholders to know what is expected of them, then it is the antithesis of that purpose to suppose that readers of normal intelligence are incapable of reading a map, that official documents do not mean what they say, or that predictability is impossible without resorting to the subjective interpretations of a handful of insiders,” he writes.

Whatever James was doing, it wasn’t planning in any legal sense, Denhez writes.

Thanks to Denhez, Uniform is going to be allowed to build more or less what the neighbours said it should be limited to: wide seven-storey buildings with rooftop features that go up to an eighth storey here and there.

“We’re delighted by the designation for the site itself and we’re delighted by the way in which this decision has counselled the city on what sort of principles it has to operate under when carrying out its own official plan and also what principles the city planning department ought to be following and remaining full of integrity,” Stinson said.

John Moser, the city’s general manager in charge of the planning department, said Friday he hadn’t read the ruling yet. John Smit, a subordinate who leads the group of planners that includes James, stuck up for him in an interview.

“I consider Doug to be a very qualified planner, very highly respected, and from my perspective he has in fact represented the city and the department and represented council’s position on the matter,” Smit said. “Every planner in the province of Ontario knows that when you’re in front of the board on zoning or an official-plan amendment, the arguments … need to be focused on policy. And it needs to be focused on policies that are approved by council through plans and secondary plans.”

Contrary to Denhez’s decision, Smit said, a lot of policy-based thought went into the department’s recommendation. The nature of an OMB hearing is usually that somebody wins and somebody loses, he said, and whoever loses ends up looking worse.

The city’s planners have done, and are doing, an enormous amount of work to make sure the conflicting policies that led to the confusion over this particular piece of property are ironed out, he said, so there won’t be reasons for this sort of dispute in the future.

“We need to put in place a zoning bylaw that actually implements the official plan,” he said. “We need to align the zoning bylaw better with the official plan than it has before or been today.”

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