ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[SAV]

A lot of people in their early to mid 20s do want to live intown. I think they will after they get established and once the market gets better. I know I will. A lot of people who move here are also from small towns and have been living in the suburbs all their lives and want to live intown.

[micropundit]

How about we agree that it is no longer either/or in Atlanta but both: people can enjoy a number of lifestyles here from Alpharetta to Atlantic Station; from Glenwood Park to the Glennridge Connector ; from Serenbe to Sandy springs and Midtown to Milton.. This was not always the case here and it is certainly not the case everywhere. Atlanta: a land of of opportunity.

[ls1z28chris]

Originally Posted by ATLmangum

Cybele, you are probably going to piss off some people with that statement, but the truth hurts. If you have to rely on a car in order to live, then you do not live in a urban city. I'm not saying that you can live in a place like Chicago or New York and not need a car, but try not using your car in Atlanta for 2 weeks and see how easy your life is.

Until Atlanta gets a "working" public transportation system, Atlanta will never be able to embrace a true urban environment.

I think car dependancy in Atlanta is a subjective standard. It takes about half an hour to walk from Five Points to 1180 Peachtree, which is 2.25 miles "as the crow flies." I've made that walk two or three times before, and did it again this past Thursday. I could easily live in a Midtown or Downtown condo (which is what the majority of the conversation here focuses upon) and not use a car for two weeks.

If the standard of an urban city is the lack of an outright dependancy a car, then Atlanta is an urban city for people who are not obese or lazy.

Originally Posted by SAV

A lot of people in their early to mid 20s do want to live intown. I think they will after they get established and once the market gets better. I know I will. A lot of people who move here are also from small towns and have been living in the suburbs all their lives and want to live intown.

I'm planning on moving intown with a friend from Cartersville and another from Woodstock either as soon as one of those two finds work, or in August once the Post-9/11 GI Bill starts and the three of us can start drawing a housing allowance. Suburbs are nice, but not when your daily commute to and from them lasts four hours, each one rotting your soul and making you resent everyone else in your community.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by ls1z28chris

Suburbs are nice, but not when your daily commute to and from them lasts four hours...

Maybe the solution is not to trash the suburbs or to attempt to force people to give them up, but simply to make more transportation options available.

As far as people desiring to move intown, it's certainly not because the option isn't available. I think I read that there are something like 5,000 new intown condos sitting there waiting for a buyer.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by Muskavon

It may be a sad thing, but not all that unrealistic. People aren't transferring from Cleveland to live downtown ATL. Sorry, I know we want them to, but about 120,000 new arrivals to the suburbs each year according to the census prove us wrong...they want the dog in the grass yard in the culd-a-sac with the 2.5 kids with the warm weather and no crime.

This is amusing. It and the rest of these responses do a fine job of undermining themselves. For starters, considering that this was the manner in which Atl metro developed unhindered, it stands to reason that it's where most transplants would be moving. Are they looking for lower COL and quality of life? Obviously. Would they exercise other options if available to them? This too is obvious. Perhaps for some a little more research is in order regarding significant economic growth factors in the US since the 1980's and the associated demographics.

The assertion regarding downtown vs. suburbs is a false dilemma and all along fraught with storybook simplification...as if the only choices in Atl were downtown and woodstock, east cobb etc. Most "intown" neighborhoods have been gentrified to the extent that ironically it's more affluent professionals with families that dominate, families with dogs and so on. Atl will likely never be like nyc or chicago, at least not in the remotely proximate future, unless we experience an economic expansion the likes of which was experienced in the 20th century. But to suggest that the alternative is unchecked outward expansion with little regard for cohesion, infrastructure, etc...I'm certainly glad such a perspective will ultimately bear itself out as flawed.

As for the introduction of socialism into the discussion, that's sloppy argumentation and a feeble attempt to discredit. Ironically I'm often reminded of my travels to former eastern bloc countries when traversing our 'burbs. And as for the notion that somehow the 'burbs are analogs to "country"...they're in fact do more to kill the very thing.

Now see how easy it is to become swaddled in dogma? Isn't it cozy in there? Kind of a shame really. IMHO people should be free to make lifestyle choices as long as they also bear the full costs, including externalities and infrastructure expansion. Given it's development history and current landscape, solutions for Atlanta will ultimately lie somewhere in the middle. But unfortunately it'll take longer to get there with such puerility dominating the discourse.

[Atlwest281]

Originally Posted by cybele

Maybe the solution is not to trash the suburbs or to attempt to force people to give them up, but simply to make more transportation options available.

As far as people desiring to move intown, it's certainly not because the option isn't available. I think I read that there are something like 5,000 new intown condos sitting there waiting for a buyer.

yes 5,000 condos versus the 100,000(just a number i pulled) homes available in the suburbs The reason they are sitting there has nothing to do with the suburbs being preferred it has to do with a little something called harsh financial times. People are fearful of losing there jobs and as such aren't making major financial decisions like buy a condo or a suburban home. When conditions improve then those 5000 condos and there suburban counterparts will move. The condo market isn't idle because of lack of interest or overnight people had an epiphany that a suburban home was better, its the consumers financial confidence which takes precedence over everything. Not to mention the typically white collar jobs needed to support a home etc dried up.

The city in of itself offers the way I see 3-4 different lifestyles.

1.starter condo's for the young/first time home buyer
2. The larger more detailed filled condo/loft for the more established worker/ maybe young couple starting out
3. The luxury condo/town home/brownstone/detatched home, for the professional with increased income with kids and a dog. Particularly the intown neighborhoods grant park etc etc
4. The Ultra luxury segment I.E the St.Regis, Four Seasons, W Downtown, the large 15k sq ft and higher homes etc
The point the city offers variety and even a segment that the most toniest of suburban neighborhood cant offer.

I think probably one of the best suburban examples is the Bay Area. They are well planned out and are on a grid pattern for the most part and actually do have a draw of there own. Palo Alto probably comparable to Alpharetta here, but so much more heart and soul. A fantastic downtown area. Multiple transit options, parks everywhere you turn(and not the tired baseball softball parks) and actually walkable not to mention understand the fact that they support the cities and are part of the metro and not an island.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

I think probably one of the best suburban examples is the Bay Area. They are well planned out and are on a grid pattern for the most part and actually do have a draw of there own. Palo Alto probably comparable to Alpharetta here, but so much more heart and soul. A fantastic downtown area. Multiple transit options, parks everywhere you turn(and not the tired baseball softball parks) and actually walkable not to mention understand the fact that they support the cities and are part of the metro and not an island.

I'd love to see more of that happen here, instead of trying to force everybody to come to Five Points.

[SAV]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

not to mention understand the fact that they support the cities and are part of the metro and not an island.

SUPPORT-I wish we had more of that in Atlanta

[Atlwest281]

No one is forcing anyone to go to 5 points. Downtown is more than just five points. I dont think its forcing, i think its just that there are those who are making intown life very appealing and as such people are moving and coming to downtown midtown bhead etc. Im willing to bet your often cited fivepoints will be different in 5-6 years from now. I agree there needs to be much better transit options particularly in the suburb to suburb transit. Until suburbs can work together let alone with the counties and city it will remain status quo and those desirable suburbs will wither and the metro as a whole will wither.

People and jobs will be more than happy to go 300 miles upo the road to Charlotte which is building transit and doing a good job in having a city/suburb balance. Our constant division, down talking, classism, ineffectiveness is watched by other cities around the region and is serving as a common thread for attaching our Achilles heal of being ineffective and slow and divisive. While they are bickering with each other, we will take this corp and that corp and change our nightlife hours (ala Birmingham) and quality of life and appeal to there people to move here.

Its unthinkable the flagship city of the region has a stale nightlife scene while Bhams is thriving and growing and some places are open 24/7. Yes I know oh nightlife how awful and terrible it hurts our betty sensibilities, but it is something that is used by suburbanites and urbanities alike. One of those quality of life things that ads to a cities living experience.

[gttx]

Any solutions?
Or are there just complaints?

[Atlwest281]

Very very simple solution. Work together. That spreads from neighbors to cities and counties and the state. When individuals and municipalities and counties and the state realize we have to work together then things will change. Of course by nature we will all not agree but, if you can at least talk raise good points and compromise then there is forward motion.

What are your solutions kind sir?

[SAV]

A lot of people don't realize how much of a threat Charlotte is to Atlanta.

[sunking1056]

Originally Posted by cybele

What's wrong with suburbs? We should be proud of them!

Wow. Where to begin... Suburban development as it appears around Atlanta is simply not sustainable and is destroying our environment. At some point, it doesn't matter whether or not it's what people want, it's not a viable option for the long-term health of a society.

[plorenc]

Although we can accept Atlanta does have some top-class suburbs, they are just not going to exist in the same respect in the coming decades as they have in the past. As gasoline becomes more prohibitively expensive and the car is less available, the move towards the central city becomes inevitable, no matter if it's Marietta, Perimeter or Downtown. The age of cheap energy is quickly dwindling, a fact that is inarguable.

We need to start preparing accordingly. Rather than expanding on things that might have been completely reasonable in the past fifty years, we need to start concentrating our efforts building more practical places for the coming decades. It's fine to look in the past at our wonderful suburbs (where I grew up), but we cannot expect them to be the model for our future.

If our suburbs are the only thing we have going for our city, then we are truly unprepared for the future.

[Muskavon]

I'd suggest commuting from Talladega in anticipation of a Hydrogen car. That is my plan.

[Atlwest281]

Originally Posted by SAV

A lot of people don't realize how much of a threat Charlotte is to Atlanta.

Yeah it really is. Yes it lacks some of the flair and pizazz but it is a nice city and its where Atlanta was in terms of population 20 years ago. But the difference is that they have the mess of the big brother down the road to look at to not make mistakes.
I love Atlanta and cant really imagine living full time anywhere else, but I can see that Charlotte is becoming a force to reckon with. They are wanting to put in 600 miles of bike paths, funding there new transit system further, building a central transit hub, where else, but there center city, building new museums and expanding others, cleaning there city center, being proactive about addressing business community needs ,suburbs are getting better and more cohesive.
Airport wise not to much to worry about due to the fact that CLT isn't built to handle the traffic we have, nor do they have a carrier with the breadth and scope of Delta even before the merge. But yet still fighting to get some of the similar routes we have from here, which makes it more attractive to business.

We have to wake up and not be complacent. During the 90's and 80's we were so proactive in so many ways but that fire has seemed to be diminished. We have the know how, the backbone infrastructure both physical, and mental, now if we could just get to the implementation phase and not spend years debating. Sometimes i wish we had leaders who were similar to the heads of Dubai and Abu Dhabi and even London who see somethings lacking, they plan and implement. Im fully aware Abu Dhabi and Dubai are run by monarchs and so thus thy will be done and we live in a democracy, im merely talking about the essence of the expeditious nature and there thirst for wanting to create something great.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by Atlwest281

People and jobs will be more than happy to go 300 miles upo the road to Charlotte which is building transit and doing a good job in having a city/suburb balance. Our constant division, down talking, classism, ineffectiveness is watched by other cities around the region and is serving as a common thread for attaching our Achilles heal of being ineffective and slow and divisive. While they are bickering with each other, we will take this corp and that corp and change our nightlife hours (ala Birmingham) and quality of life and appeal to there people to move here.

I agree. We can't afford to keep dissing our suburbs and treating them as if they were some sort of bland wasteland. That's not the case at all. They are vibrant, diverse, and full of nightlife, restaurants, parks, and arts activities.

Likewise, our suburban areas need to quit treating the city of Atlanta as if it were a pariah.

Charlotte is doing an excellent job of knitting its metro together. We could learn some lessons from that, and none too soon.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by plorenc

As gasoline becomes more prohibitively expensive and the car is less available, the move towards the central city becomes inevitable, no matter if it's Marietta, Perimeter or Downtown.

I would qualify that by suggesting that the increasing price of energy will tend to push people closer to their jobs, although that doesn't necessarily mean central cities. Most jobs are now in the suburbs.

[ls1z28chris]

Originally Posted by plorenc

Although we can accept Atlanta does have some top-class suburbs, they are just not going to exist in the same respect in the coming decades as they have in the past. As gasoline becomes more prohibitively expensive and the car is less available, the move towards the central city becomes inevitable, no matter if it's Marietta, Perimeter or Downtown. The age of cheap energy is quickly dwindling, a fact that is inarguable.

We need to start preparing accordingly. Rather than expanding on things that might have been completely reasonable in the past fifty years, we need to start concentrating our efforts building more practical places for the coming decades. It's fine to look in the past at our wonderful suburbs (where I grew up), but we cannot expect them to be the model for our future.

If our suburbs are the only thing we have going for our city, then we are truly unprepared for the future.

I think that even our suburb model would be viable if the people that lived in them were not so opposed to rail transit going through their communities. I would live in Marietta for the rest of my life if a MARTA line ran up I-75 the way it does GA-400 up to North Springs. As much as I love seeing building proposals and new construction in the area, I'd be much more excited if the state started taking public transit in the Atlanta metro much more seriously. And then you have clowns like the "conservative" guy in the AJC who says (and I paraphrase liberally) screw public transit, lets make every interstate eight lanes in each direction!

Originally Posted by cybele

Maybe the solution is not to trash the suburbs or to attempt to force people to give them up, but simply to make more transportation options available.

Like state funding and control of MARTA? That would be nice. Maybe then their "law enforcement officers" would actually follow the law, they would clean their transit stations at least once every quarter century or so, and we would see some sort of expansion of service rather than the agency going broke and trying to shut down their lines.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by cybele

I agree. We can't afford to keep dissing our suburbs and treating them as if they were some sort of bland wasteland. That's not the case at all. They are vibrant, diverse, and full of nightlife, restaurants, parks, and arts activities.

Likewise, our suburban areas need to quit treating the city of Atlanta as if it were a pariah.

Charlotte is doing an excellent job of knitting its metro together. We could learn some lessons from that, and none too soon.

I think that connectivity between the cities might also become very important in the future. One of the reasons the Northeast Corridor has been (historically) so successful is that its major cities are all seamlessly connected. I could go from Washington DC to Philadelphia, New York, or Boston (and a number of cities in between) for relatively cheap, either on Amtrak or any number of bus systems. I realize the growing southern cities are not as large and much farther apart, but it is an idea worth considering moving forward. Simple rail service between Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, and even cities like Nashville or Memphis would be awesome.