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  #101  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:04 PM
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Glad to see so much support. But I wish they would get off the airport tunnel and focus more on Plan It!
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  #102  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:06 PM
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I hate the "more people will miss their flights if there is no airport tunnel" line.

Giving yourself enough time to get to the airport, check in, and go through security is YOUR responsibility.

If no tunnel goes forward, then people must plan to leave early enough to ensure they make their flight on time.

Edit: The current lady got pretty worked up over a hole in the ground! Think of the children! We must have the tunnel!

Edit 2: For the record I am all for the tunnel, but I don't believe the airport authority should be footing any part of the bill. They have given the city plenty of notice on the parallel runway project.
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  #103  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:21 PM
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Chris Turner of CivicCamp is up now, should be good.

Edit: Let's see if McIver asks him any questions, I'm betting he sits Chris out knowing that his tricks won't work on him.

Last edited by Bigtime; Jun 23, 2009 at 10:32 PM.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
I hate the "more people will miss their flights if there is no airport tunnel" line.

Giving yourself enough time to get to the airport, check in, and go through security is YOUR responsibility.

If no tunnel goes forward, then people must plan to leave early enough to ensure they make their flight on time.

Edit: The current lady got pretty worked up over a hole in the ground! Think of the children! We must have the tunnel!

Edit 2: For the record I am all for the tunnel, but I don't believe the airport authority should be footing any part of the bill. They have given the city plenty of notice on the parallel runway project.
People will miss their flights is for sure a dumb arguement. You just got to give yourself enough time.

I don't think necessarily that the Airport Authority should HAVE to give their share to get the tunnel built, but I can't see how they wouldn't WANT to do so. Their 35-50 million share would be money very well spent in their eyes, in terms of improving Airport access, especially for the hotels, and other Airport related services, even for developing the future airside services on the East side of the new runway.

The Airport will attract more business if it's related services have easy access. If you make that access difficult, business will suffer.

As for the city, building the tunnel is a no brainer, IMO. The costs of not building it would likely be greater than doing it. The Province and Feds just have to get on board, with their funding. Hopefully, they can find the money despite cutbacks being made in other places.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:43 PM
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Well McIver tried to tangle with Chris, didn't get what he wanted out of the whole "changing the character of a community" angle.
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  #106  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:47 PM
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Who is this guy? He's smart! Sorry, I'm at work so I'm not catching the whole debate, but wow, he knows his stuff.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 10:49 PM
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That's Chris Turner, a founding member of the citizens group 'CivicCamp' (http://www.civiccamp.net/blog/). He's also a local author that has written a couple of books about new urban development.

Best of all is he speaks very well in public and helps present this viewpoint in the most positive light possible.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2009, 11:18 PM
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Here's the Plan: Calgary leads us all to a greener future

The massive Plan It Calgary proposal would set a framework for the city's growth for the next 60 years

Jeffrey Simpson

Last updated on Tuesday, Jun. 23, 2009 12:25PM EDT


Cities grow incrementally. A park bench here, a particular streetscape there, a zoning change, a new apartment or subdivision, a road widened, a transit line created.

Cities are organic. They change slowly. There are moments, however, when key projects - an expressway, a massive housing development, a huge investment in public transit - can bring dramatic change, for better and worse.

Toronto, for example, will never recover from the Gardiner Expressway, or from its unco-ordinated mishmash of waterfront developments.

Vancouver, by contrast, will benefit for generations from the intelligence of its waterside developments at Coal Harbour and Yaletown.

The essence of Canadian (and North American) cities since the Second World War has grown from the desire for single-family homes in suburbia and the consequent needs of the car, the preferred means of personal transportation.

The shape of every Canadian city reflects these choices that seemed, for so long, cost-free. Recently, however, a few cities have been rethinking sprawl, especially the costs it dumps on municipal governments to service far-flung areas and the environmental costs of all that car travel. Slowly, cities are beginning to wonder about sprawl and, in a few instances, trying to do something about it, however tentatively.

Ottawa City Council, for example, recently rejected its own planning staff's suggestion to add about 800 hectares to the urban area, some of which would be used for more single-family dwellings, despite the council's expressed wish for more intensification. The council did allow about 200 additional hectares by a one-vote margin, a display of how the forces of more sprawl, backed by the development lobby, remain powerful.

In Calgary on Tuesday, the council faces an even more consequential decision, whether to endorse the massive Plan It Calgary proposal that would set a framework for the city's growth for the next 60 years.

As in Ottawa, there are important elements on Calgary Council who believe the market should always prevail. People should choose how they want to live, runs the argument, and the job of the city is to allow those choices to be made. If the people want sprawl - single-family homes, large lots, personal automobile use to and from the from the centre - then so be it.

Plan It Calgary must be adopted at “third reading,” as it's called. Two weeks ago, the plan's proponents figured they had only a one-vote margin.

Calgary's municipal scene shows much more diversity than its federal and provincial politics. There's more intelligent urban thinking than in many Canadian cities.

The in-fill development and intensification around the central core are excellent. So was the development of Chinatown. Three light rapid-transit lines operate, and a fourth is under construction. Compare that to Toronto.

All of Calgary's lines run above ground, unlike the silly Ottawa plan to drill a hugely expensive and unnecessary tunnel under the centre of the city for its first serious light rapid-transit line. Some of Calgary's newer suburbs have an unusually high level of density.

Plan It Calgary tries to outline how Calgary must incrementally change to accommodate 1.3 million more people in the next 60 years.

The emphasis is very much on rapid-transit expansion, density hikes around the LRT stations, much better street design, some new single-family subdivisions to be sure, but generally more intensive development.

For a city where the oil industry did everything possible for years to debunk global warming (an attitude now changed, at least publicly), planners talk on almost every page of Plan It Calgary about making the city “greener” and more energy-sustainable. Says the document: “The impact of fossil fuel use on the environment is well-documented.”

Despite Plan It Calgary's excellent intentions, even if everything went according to its vision - including a population density of 27 people per hectare instead of 20 today - perhaps 60 per cent of trips by Calgarians in 2070 would still be made by car, compared to 77 per cent today.

Public transit is great, and more of it is needed. But changing the kind of cars people drive, and what fuels them, is even more important in reducing emissions.

Plan It Calgary's vision for tomorrow's city is on the right side of the future. Let's hope its proponents prevail today.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1192584/
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  #109  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 3:14 AM
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Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed View Post
People will miss their flights is for sure a dumb arguement. You just got to give yourself enough time.

I don't think necessarily that the Airport Authority should HAVE to give their share to get the tunnel built, but I can't see how they wouldn't WANT to do so. Their 35-50 million share would be money very well spent in their eyes, in terms of improving Airport access, especially for the hotels, and other Airport related services, even for developing the future airside services on the East side of the new runway.

The Airport will attract more business if it's related services have easy access. If you make that access difficult, business will suffer.

As for the city, building the tunnel is a no brainer, IMO. The costs of not building it would likely be greater than doing it. The Province and Feds just have to get on board, with their funding. Hopefully, they can find the money despite cutbacks being made in other places.
The airport will be paying its fair share if the tunnel is built. The airport head honcho figured that the tunnel would force the airport to build $80 million dollars worth of access roads and interchanges that would be unneeded if the tunnel is not built.

They are fully willing to spend that money if the tunnel is put in. If the airport put in for the tunnel, it would be only fair the city, province, and feds would ahve to put in for the airport access.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 5:28 AM
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I'm curious .... is anyone from SSP Calgary there at the meeting to speak today?
I will be. But I am way down on the "for" list. Probably won't speak until tomorrow or Thursday. Most likely Thursday.
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  #111  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 5:41 AM
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Just to clear some things up:

This is going to be a multi-day event. Council will be in session from:

9:30 to 9:30 on Tuesday
1:00 to 9:30 on Wednesday
9:30 to 9:30 on Thursday
and 9:30 to 9:30 on Friday ... all with breaks at 12:00, 3:13 and 6:00.

Speakers are each given 5 minutes, with those in favour speaking first (I got there at 9:15 and I was #70 to speak in favour). Council does not vote until every person has had their opportunity to speak.

Some aldermen (councillors) are going to move in and out during the proceedings. It may be to go to the washroom, or even to have to go to another event. All of them were there to start, and all of them will be there at the end.

Believe me, it's a marathon. I only went for about 6 hours today, and that was more than enough.
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  #112  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 5:49 AM
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I made it down, but I'm even further down the list than fusili. I'm in the 90s, Beltliner is around #80, I think fusili is 70 or so. When I left, there were 99 people on the "in favour" list and 60 on the "opposed" list. They made it through to about $45 on the "in favour" list today.

Chris Turner was indeed very good, as were several other speakers. I really liked the older guy, Dave Matthews, who foreshadowed about the opposing speakers dragging out the word "market" a lot. The lady from Brentwood was really good, as was Peter Rishaug, the Canada Lands representative Ken Toews, and the guy with the banking background (can't recall his name) was great and his material was interesting. Chris Ollenberger from CMLC was a very composed and interesting speaker and brought a good perspective.

Lots of interesting conversation amongst the crowd coming and going from the proceedings as well.

I found Ald. Connelly to have quite a disrespectful tone to some of the speakers when asking questions. I and several people around me were visibly surprised when Linda Fox-Mellway dipped her toe into the debate with a question to Chris Ollenberger. To her credit, she at least spoke more than Ray Jones who I'm convinced could double as a piece of Council Chamber furniture.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 1:16 PM
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Wow Fox-Mellway spoke!

I'll be tuning into this again during the day here at work as I can, hopefully a couple of our members here will make it to the podium today.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 1:52 PM
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Supporters laud Calgary's Plan It; opponents to have say

By Robert Remington, Calgary HeraldJ une 24, 2009 7:23 AM

CALGARY - The score at deadline was Beautiful Dreamers 39, Evil Profiteers 0, but only because the Evil Profiteers had yet to take the field.

For 12 hours Tuesday, supporters of Plan It--perhaps the most crucial planning document in Calgary history--spoke eloquently about the need to create a more compact and less car-dependent city as envisioned in Plan It, which sets out how the city should develop over the next 50 to 60 years.

Widely criticized by the development industry as a utopian dream that forces people into high-density developments they don't want, Plan It, according to supporters and city planners, could save taxpayers $11 billion in lower infrastructure costs because it would require fewer roads and sewers in coming decades.

The development lobby, represented by the Urban Development Institute and Canadian Home Builders' Association, had yet to speak to the hearing at deadline. They were painted by some Plan It supporters as interested only in protecting their profits by continuing to build California car-culture suburbs.

But other Plan It supporters, including several young presenters, admitted they might want the white-picket-fence suburban dream 20 years from now. The Evil Profiteers, it seems, might not be that evil after all. It was a sensible message--that the city needs developments like Garrison Woods as well as Shawnessy.

Yet it is overwhelmingly clear that the status quo is not an option.

Several Plan It supporters, including Calgary author Chris Turner, rightly said the problem in that past has been that people in Calgary have only been presented with one model--the single family home in the suburbs, he said, adding that Plan It is simply bringing some balance with developments like the highly successful Garrison Woods.

Turner and others, including University of Calgary urban geographer Byron Miller, bluntly told council that Plan It is too timid, and that by the time its vision is realized, it will be too late.

"It's not ambitious enough," said Turner, who wrote the acclaimed book The Geography of Hope: A Guided Tour of the World We Need. "We are looking at a dramatically altered country and city and world in the next 20 years that will make the last few years of upheaval look mild."

Most North American cities were designed and built on a foundation of cheap and plentiful energy. Those days are at an end. As one presenter told council, gasoline in Calgary today is more than $1 a litre--in the midst of a recession, no less. In the long term, it is going only one direction. Up.

Turner has written views similar to those expressed by retired Calgary geologist Dave Hughes. Writing recently in The Walrus, Turner notes that Hughes speaks of the "holy trinity of fossil fuels whose flames have stoked the past 200 years of industrial growth --coal, natural gas, and especially oil--and that . . . there's no possible way to keep running the engine of a modern global economy for much longer at the pace we're burning them."

Turner gave the most animated presentation to council Tuesday, saying the message he is getting from exploration geologists is that the sense of urgency to redesign a more compact city "is more serious than the public realizes."

He, and they, are right. If you want more evidence, pick up Jeff Rubin's Why Your World Is About to Get a Whole Lot Smaller. For the flip side of the argument, look up the writings of Randal O'Toole and Wendell Cox, two opponents of "smart growth." Or, listen to what one Calgary developer, Ken Toews, told council Tuesday about Plan It:

"It's a model that can work," said Toews, who built in Garrison Woods.

"We need to re-educate the development community that . . they can make more money," in higher density neighbourhoods, he said. One Garrison Woodstype development has taken off in Denver, even in the recession, said Toews.

"There is incredible opportunity. The market was there all the time, it's just that there was no product."

When the development industry speaks against Plan It, we will hear a lot about letting market forces decide what kind of city we should build, and that 72 per cent of Calgarians want single family homes.

If that's the case, why have prices risen faster in Garrison Woods--300 per cent --than in the suburbs? It was a project that many critics said would never work.

On Tuesday, it was hailed by a Marda Loop business lobby group as the best thing that ever happened to their bottom line.

© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
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Blueprint for Calgary's growth triggers marathon debate
More than 150 Calgarians hope to speak

By Jason Markusoff, Calgary HeraldJ une 24, 2009 7:13 AM

CALGARY - A controversial plan to make Calgary denser and more pedestrian-friendly over the next six decades has triggered the biggest, broadest public debate City Hall has seen in five years.

Council chambers were packed Tuesday morning, as more than 150 Calgarians were waiting for their chance to speak for or against Plan It.

"I think it's one of the most important subjects the city has to tackle," said Knob Hill resident Pavane Singh, registered to be the 81st person to speak (they were barely past the 30th Tuesday evening).

Singh said he'd try to monitor the progress, but if he can't, a friend will phone to let him know his turn is coming up.

Aldermen have set aside time until Friday--going to 9:30 p. m. each night--to hear the public's views, although some city officials say the hearing may wind down early, depending on public interest.

The last public hearing to draw this much interest was a three-day session in 2004 devoted to a proposed massive community next to Spruce Meadows.

Ald. Gord Lowe offered an old political saying to emphasize what this hearing means: "A failure to plan is a plan for failure."

Property developers and home builders are lining up to oppose the plan's encouragement of less suburban expansion, while many residents oppose the proposal for river crossings over Sandy Beach and Edworthy Park. But the first day of the marathon public hearing was devoted mainly to supporters of Plan It and its attempts to lessen Calgary's car dependence and create more walkable communities.

"Business as usual in this city has no future," said Chris Turner, a Calgary sustainability activist and author of Geography of Hope:A Guided Tour of the World We Need.

Some aldermen pointed out that new suburbs are denser and have more multi-family housing than ones built decades ago. But Turner said there's been minimal progress, lamenting that it's novel for residents of McKenzie Towne in the city's southeast to be able to walk to their neighbourhood pub.

Plan It predicts that Calgary will grow by 1.3 million Calgarians in 60 years, and that half of them can be housed in redeveloped and denser areas in existing communities, rather than in new suburbs on the city's fringe.

The transit network's capacity would quadruple, with several crosstown bus routes with frequent stops all day long.

Many supporters of Plan It argued the blueprint didn't do enough to curb sprawl, not making Calgary as sustainable as they had hoped.

"I wanted to come here and say Plan It should be tougher, but half a pie is better than no pie," Roy Wright said.


Community leaders from Sunalta and Victoria Park said intensification will greatly improve quality of life in those neighbourhoods.

David Low of the Victoria Crossing Business Revitalization Zone said the highrises there are attracting empty-nesters from the suburbs and young members of the city's "intelligentsia" who reject the popular notion that "living well means living big and living large.

Ald. Ric McIver stayed true to his earlier skepticism about Plan It's approach, asking university student Derek Pomreinke if people of his generation will still want backyards for their children.

"I don't think as many people will see it as a necessity," Pomreinke replied, noting good public amenities within walking distance are a good substitute.


McIver also suggested that Plan It's targets for density are so demanding that even Garrison Woods, often cited as the model for redeveloped land in Calgary, wouldn't be accepted.

Mary Axworthy, the city's manager of land use planning, told council Tuesday that the city won't use Plan It to determine which proposed developments it will approve or reject.

Although the blueprint doesn't mention an airport access tunnel, several community and business advocates for that $400-million project spoke at the hearing and demanded Plan It include that extra access to replace the Barlow Trail link.

jmarkusoff@theherald. canwest.com
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
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  #115  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:10 PM
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SUN ARTICLE

Imaging walking into the Flames dressing room and eavesdropping on a conversation between general manager Darryl Sutter and coach Mike Keenan, who are discussing strategies.

"I can envision Jarome Iginla, taking the puck behind our net and reaching the blue line, he fires a crisp cross-ice pass to Sydney Crosby, who dekes the defender and skates into the opposition end," says Keenan.

"Crosby spies Alexander Ovechkin closing in on the net and nails a pass on the tape, Ovechkin does a spinarama and shelfs the puck in the upper left corner. Game over and the opposition is shut out."

"That's a nice vision, Mike," says Sutter. "But it would be difficult to implement the moves needed to bring in Sidney and Alex and no one knows what it would cost."

"I know," says Keenan. "But it's fun to dream."

Of course that conversation never took place and never will, because, although it probably sounds good to Flames fans, there isn't a business plan that would support all three players being here and even if there was, there would be unintended consequences, such as the cost of Flames tickets going through the roof and a decline in attendance in Pittsburgh and Washington. It simply would not work and neither will Plan It Calgary's vision of a future Calgary, which is as utopian an ideal as Iginla, Crosby and Ovechkin on the same team.

Plan It Calgary is anything but a plan, says Randal O'Toole, a senior fellow with the Cato Institute, who was in town this week to talk about his experiences with government planning. O'Toole says Plan It is merely a vision and a flawed one at that, based on 'smart growth' plans in other cities that have proven to not work or accomplish their stated goals.

Plan It will have unintended consequences such as significantly raising the cost of housing, making traffic problems worse rather than better and turning our city into an unattractive place to live and do business. And that, quite simply, should make Plan It unacceptable to all Calgarians.

Whether you were born and raised here or adopted the city as your own as a place of fantastic opportunity and a great place to raise a family -- a city that was founded and has thrived on the entrepreneurial spirit with a get 'er done philosophy that has made us the economic driver of the country and the envy of all other cities in Canada -- you must stand against Plan It.

Our city's free spirit and future are being threatened by a pie-in-the-sky 'smart growth' document that is as far away from being a business plan as you can get.

Plan It is a document that does not document what it will cost to implement the vision, if it had an implementation plan, which it doesn't.

Plan It must be shut out of Calgary's future.

MYKE.THOMAS@SUNMEDIA.CA



Somebody want to respond to this guy and put him in his place....I would but I think I would snap before I get any valid points into his thick skull! I guess this is expected being it is in the SUN.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:13 PM
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Is that the guy that writes in the 'Homes' section?

I'm pretty sure almost all of his articles over the last few months have done nothing more than slam PlanIt. He doesn't even do a good job of it.

I think the worst part is that I have no problem with the other viewpoint on the issue, but this guy doesn't even want the slightest bit of Plan It to come to fruition.

I won't even waste the time responding to him, when he spends 99% of his time deadset against any part of it what makes you think replying to him will make any shred of difference in his close-minded world?
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  #117  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:16 PM
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So when does the council meeting start today?
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  #118  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:22 PM
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If one side (Plan-it) has given reasons why they want to implement their plan ( ie less traffic, less costly in the long term) and the other side (anti plan-it) counters by giving the same outcomes if their side is chosen, don't you think the "anti" people should at least give reasoning for their side?

Plan-it people: We need to do this or else the cost of building the city will be astronomical, and traffic will be terrible. Here's 300 pages of reasoning for why it is so.

Sun writer: Plan it will make everything so much more expensive and traffic would be so much worse. (No reasoning given)

Does the Sun writer really think he can win an arguement like that?
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  #119  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:26 PM
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I love how Myke Thomas spouts off Randy O'toole's reich-wing think-tank (isn't that an oxymoron - right wing and think?) rhetoric as if it were fact without even doing any research; but then again, it is the Calgary Scum.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 4:32 PM
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So when does the council meeting start today?
It starts again at 13:00, runs to 21:30, with breaks at 15:15 (I believe) and at 18:00.

I forgot to mention that when I arrived yesterday and looked at the lists, at the top of the list for the "opposed" side is Jill Van Toll. You may remember her as the first person to speak in opposition of the Brentwood SAP. I wonder if she could repeat her role as the most valuable player for the "in favour" side. Cue Ballbuster Lowe to have a field day.
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