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  #101  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2008, 12:57 PM
adam adam is offline
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I'll try to keep an open mind. Thanks for your input.
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  #102  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2008, 8:11 PM
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I am in complete agreement with RTH on this issue--the City does listen to malcontents far too much--we have the same problem locally--fantastic waterfront festival/music/entertainment spaces which are of limited use because people don't like the noise. Noise at night would bother me too--it's one of the reasons I don't live in the city--but if you choose to, the noise, hustle/bustle, etc...come with the territory. My sister used to live on Charlton--I thought it was great being down there on New Years Eve listening to the happenings at City Hall, people banging pots and pans, etc...that's what the city is about.

No one is advocating noise every weekend of the year into the wee hours--but it is acceptable when living near an entertainment district or venue, to hear noise a few weekend out of the year.
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  #103  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2008, 8:11 PM
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so, I went to the Gown and Gavel today.
Wow...quite the reno. It's nothing like it used to be. More like KOI/London Tap House combo. Very cool though.

Gord Moodie was there the entire time I was there chatting it up with the staff/managers. I'm not sure if the owners were there, but they were definitely 'upper' management.
He was sitting there when I arrived and sitting there when I left. There's definitely a relationship there.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 3:10 AM
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Council takes heat over Hess Village expansion

February 09, 2009
Nicole MacIntyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/article/510402

Hess Village is growing despite police warning the entertainment district is already “over saturated.”

City councillors voted today to allow Smooth Herman’s to add 90 seats to its patio on George Street.

It’s just the latest expansion for the bar district that Councillor Brian McHattie believes is out of control.

“I think it’s entirely possible that someone is going to die.”

But Smooth Herman’s owner Paul Pappas urged council not to punish his business for problems he says are created by nightclubs.

The sports bar originally requested 249 seats on its patio, nearly five times the number allowed under the city’s bylaw.

With a planning fight looming at the Ontario Municipal Board, city staff endorsed 90 seats as a compromise both sides could accept.

But police and residents urged council to continue the battle, arguing the neighbourhood can’t handle one more licensed seat.

“Hess has reached and surpassed its saturation point,” said Staff Sergeant Mark Cox, who came armed with statistics to prove his point.

Five years ago, the village was licensed for roughly 3,100 patrons. Last year it was approaching 4,600, with five additional bars.

On weekends, Cox said, there are often six or more police officers called to the area, in addition to the 10 paid duty officers already patrolling. The cost of paid patrols are shared between the police and bar owners, but Cox said it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find officers willing to take the shifts.

Several officers, he said, have been attacked by young drunken patrons. Hess Village encourages misbehaviour because its large crowds allow for anonymity and create a mob mentality, Cox said.

“Social norms basically become suspended.”

From 2007 to 2008, police saw the number of assaults in Hess jump from 24 to 32. The mischief reports went from three to 13 and theft reports from three to 19.

Residents in the surrounding neighbourhoods often wake up to drunken patrons walking the streets after closing time, said Sarah Matthews, president of the Durand Neighbourhood Association. Car mirrors have been broken and planters stolen, and public urination is common, she said.

“There just has to come a point where you say enough is enough.”

But Pappas argued his patrons aren’t the troublemakers.

“We don’t have fights in our establishment,” he said, committing to work with police and neighbourhood groups.

City staff cautioned councillors that the likelihood of stopping any expansion was slim because of the compromise on the table. If council voted to continue the fight, the city would need to hire outside planners to argue the case.

Four councillors — McHattie, Bob Bratina, Scott Duvall and Sam Merulla — opposed the deal.

McHattie wants the city to put a temporary ban on new bars and restaurants in the area until the city can develop a long-term solution. There are rumours, he said, that three other bars are expanding.

The ban was shot down by Bratina, who fears it would affect other developments the city wants to encourage in the area.

Councillors agreed to have staff report back on ways to address the village’s issues through planning, licensing or increased policing.
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 3:23 AM
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People are too cautious, Hess Village is successful, let it grow. It's not even close to being out of control. 32 assaults in one year? Big deal, there were that many assaults in one weekend at some of the bars I used to play at.
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 4:41 AM
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
People are too cautious, Hess Village is successful, let it grow. It's not even close to being out of control. 32 assaults in one year? Big deal, there were that many assaults in one weekend at some of the bars I used to play at.
Yeah really... Hess is nowhere near out of control. What do you expect when you mix a bunch of young adults with alcohol? I admit sometimes sh** goes down but I have seen A LOT worse in Toronto.
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 8:19 AM
IronWarrior IronWarrior is offline
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I would'nt know how 'out of control' it has gotten, as I have'nt stepped foot in Hess Village in about 3-4 years now..it was much better in my opinion about 12 or so years ago and thats based on my opinion from 3-4 years ago!.
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 12:07 PM
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Out of control?!

Hess is one of the few bright spots that I can brag about to my (gta area) friends.

Sometimes I think it may be better for councilors to stay home. Find a way to make it work rather than restricting everything. Same goes for the pearl company unbelievable zoning problem with the city. Arts and entertainment are great for urban areas. TRY to make them work.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 4:54 PM
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I think if the Police are saying that's its hard to control, people need to listen.

It seems that all the establishments are turning into nightclubs. You need more of a mix between restaurants, cafe's and bars.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2009, 8:56 PM
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I agree that too many nightclubs will wreck Hess Village, it needs diversity. But I never listen to the police--to them, crime is always going up and they always need more officers, higher pay, more resources and more equipment. They can hold the everyone over a barrel because they've led people to believe they're the only thing holding back utter chaos.
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 2:36 AM
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Hess neighbours vow to fight opening of new bar

February 20, 2009
Nicole MacIntyre
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/article/517478

As the city heads off to fight one Hess Village expansion, another bar for 400 patrons is under construction.

The city has already issued building permits to developer Denis Vranich to build Rok Bar in the heart of the entertainment district.

Residents are hoping to challenge the bar’s liquor licence and to generate the same level of community opposition that stalled Smooth Herman’s growth plans.

With city staff now committed to looking at Hess’s future, debate is growing over the best way to deal with misbehaviour in the village.

Downtown councillor Bob Bratina and some business owners don’t believe the answer is stopping the attraction’s expansion. Instead, they argue it’s a matter of diversifying and controlling the crowd.

“Development should continue,” says Bratina, who wants to crack down on unruly patrons and irresponsible bars through city licensing and increased policing.

But police, the neighbouring councillor and residents believe it’s a numbers game and the small village can’t handle any more people.

The entertainment district, says Councillor Brian McHattie, is just like any ecosystem — it has a carrying capacity.

“We’re well above the threshold.”

Adding more police to the area will only make it more congested, said Superintendent Bill Stewart.

In five years, he noted, the village has grown from 3,100 licensed seats to 4,600.

“When does it end?” Stewart said, adding police plan to oppose every new application.

It was the police’s unprecedented intervention into the city’s planning process that motivated councillors to fight Smooth Herman’s request for a patio expansion.

The sports bar wanted to add 249 seats, but agreed to a compromise of 90 seats.

The bylaw allows 50.

Council rejected the compromise 8-5, so the fight will go to the Ontario Municipal Board to be settled.

There is no opportunity at the city level to challenge Rok Bar, which is replacing a building that partially collapsed in 2007. The permits have been issued.

Vranich did not return a call for comment.

The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario approved an extension of the bar’s licence, but still requires further approvals. If the information is not provided by May, the application will be reassessed.

McHattie is encouraging residents to write to the ACGO to urge it to hold a special hearing.

James Nicholson, vice-president of the Central Neighbourhood Association, is ready to do battle. “We need to draw a line in the sand.”

The neighbourhoods around Hess find themselves “under siege” on summer nights when the village is overflowing with partyers, Nicholson said.

Marion Challe, owner of Challe Design Consultants in Hess, agrees there’s a problem with the crowd the village is attracting, but believes freezing development will only make it worse.

“I think the problem is overcrowding in the street, not necessarily in the bars,” she said, noting more licensed seats might spread out the patrons.
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 3:39 AM
Bob Bratina Bob Bratina is offline
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Hess Village

The demand for a development freeze in Hess Village is being studied by our group reviewing the problems in the Village. The fact is that if there were problems last summer, nothing will change this summer by way of significant capacity increase. The Rok Bar will not be in operation, so the demands of certain Councillors and neighbours to stop further development are irrelevant. The problems can easily be solved by policing and by-law enforcement. I expect we will be adding conditions to the Hess Licencees with regard to overcrowding, over-serving, and serving to minors. We also need Police to respond to the tail-gate parties I have observed in the City Hall parking lot, and the Fitness club lot on York boulevard where young people "prime" themselves with cheap alcohol before wading into the Hess scene. Why these are allowed to go on is difficult to explain.
Among the suggestions and remedies I have brought forward are a moratorium on street festivals, zero tolerance for licencees, priority action against bars known to be trouble spots, continuation of the neighbourhood patrols established as a pilot program and paid for by our Downtown Renewal division. This action should be considered as part of the Police Services budget, as it proved effective in reducing neighbourhood nuisances. We can also ask for help from the officers who police the much larger Toronto Entertainment District to observe our situation and offer suggestions based on their experience. We probably also need a dedicated Hess Village police unit, rather than taking officers on randomly through the season, based on availability. The fact is we are talking about 18 licencees in two blocks, and I'm not sure why we can't bring this under control through concerted and co-ordinated effort by Police and by-law enforcement. I have spent many late nights observing the activities in the Village, and I don't see anything that is beyond control, or demands a development freeze. Simply stated, whatever happened last year could happen again this year, and no expansion of capacity will occur that might exacerbate the situation. So what is the point of a planning freeze? In a difficult economy we have investors willing to bring new development to our Downtown, including a parking structure along George Street that could solve some of the neighbourhood problems. Bar owners could for example offer their patrons subsidized parking in the structure. Another point being missed by those demanding a planning freeze is that more capacity might actually help solve the problem by providing supply to an obvious demand. We also have to look at the cheap prices, such as dollar shots, which can get a teenager very drunk and unruly for $5 or $10 dollars. So to sum up, a lot of work is being applied to the Hess problems, and a development freeze does nothing this season to solve the problems that currently exist.
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 4:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Bratina View Post
We also need Police to respond to the tail-gate parties I have observed in the City Hall parking lot, and the Fitness club lot on York boulevard where young people "prime" themselves with cheap alcohol before wading into the Hess scene. Why these are allowed to go on is difficult to explain.
Why is it allowed? I would hazard a guess that when "observed" 911 is (was) not called.
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 4:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Bratina View Post
including a parking structure along George Street that could solve some of the neighbourhood problems.
This should be a top priority to help Hess Village and the neighbourhood. You could also include a Hess Village police unit at the parking structure to monitor the site and make sure no driver is leaving the parking structure drunk. Maybe council should look at the infrastructure fund to help speed up this project.
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 10:15 AM
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A few thoughts:

I believe that a visible police presence acts as a deterrent. The policeman or policewoman just has to walk up and down and this will discourage certain minor crimes.

If people are worried about the costs of policing, have the bars and clubs in the local area pay for it. Charging their patrons an additional dollar per head would probably pay for the policing and not add significantly to the cost of a night out.

Does Hamilton have anything like Community Support Officers?
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 6:59 PM
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We have community police officers, there's one at Concession St. Bratina would like to see one at Hess Village, which I think is a good idea.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 8:26 PM
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Also, I believe the bars do pay something towards the increased policing costs. How much, and whether it's enough, I don't know.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 8:50 PM
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They do, bars pay 50% of policing. The only city to do this.
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 10:00 PM
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They do, bars pay 50% of policing. The only city to do this.
Are the police devoting resources accordingly?

The bar owners are effectively paying for a private police force and if they aren't getting a visible presence for their money, perhaps they are being short changed...
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Why is it allowed? I would hazard a guess that when "observed" 911 is (was) not called.
I don't think it's appropriate to phone 911 for something like that... you could maybe just give the police station a ring.
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