Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

Mayor Fred is dropping the ball HUGE on this one. He shouldn't be throwing ANY bones about tearing it down. Get some balls for crying out loud and quit allowing such renegade mobsters to hold our downtown hostage!

[matt602]

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. I wish my prediction wasn't so right. Damn... I had it down to a t.

[raisethehammer]

yup, you did Matt. too bad.
Let's hope Harry gets involved now.

[flar]

There's no guarantee Stinson would save it either. The restoration of Lister will be extremely costly, as I stated before, the damaged terra cotta pieces will have to be molded to match the old ones and I doubt there are many master craftsmen in terra cotta these days, and if there are they wouldn't be cheap.

[raisethehammer]

all the more reason to save it. they don't build em like this anymore.
if LIUNA's numbers are correct, it just shows what a gem of a building this is. To do it right will cost some coin, but I still don't trust them. Other engineers looked at it and figured it would be no more expensive to restore. They just want a Bay St federal building crap-box to be built and not a quirky, unique piece of history.
Hi-Rise gets off the hook easy on these forums, but probably have more influence than we realize. They truly have NO clue how to do anything other than the trash we now have on Bay St. Took an empty parking lot and plopped down an ugly building whose forecourt and street presence is just as welcoming, warm and vibrant as a mid-winter parking lot.

[matt602]

If Lister does indeed fall to the wrecking ball and the site sits empty for any longer than 6 months, I assure you I'll be raising hell to anyone I can get my voice out to. If I have to watch my favorite building in the city come down, they damn well better make it worth it.

I have little faith that Harry can do anything about Lister. His heart is in the right place I think, but LIUNA has made it clear they won't play ball with him.

I lost a ton of faith in two of my favorite people in City Hall because of this: Mayor Fred and Bob Bratina. Both people that I thought would stand up for Lister have not only turned their back on it, but spat on it by recommending demolition. At least Sam and Brian still have faith.

I am being pretty hard about all of this, and after all it is a building of concrete and steel but I've had a lot of memories inside of it. I've taken pictures of every square inch of it and explored every single room. It's architecture is the most breathtaking I've ever seen and I don't think it could ever be properly replicated. It's going to be like losing a friend.

[raisethehammer]

Stinson said he's interested in buying it, but LIUNA says it's not for sale. Why not?? apparently it's impossible to make any money developing, so sell it to some sucker who thinks it is.

[SteelTown]

Lister deal disintegrates
Council rejects exorbitant leasing costs, starts talks with school board

January 08, 2008
Nicole Macintyre
The Hamilton Spectator

The deal to save the Lister Block is dead.

Council balked yesterday at paying $37 a square foot-- or $44 million over 20 years -- to lease space in the downtown building.

"That's just not a rational deal for taxpayers," said Mayor Fred Eisenberger. "It's a non-starter."

As the Lister deal crumbled, council voted to start talks with the public school board to lease space in a proposed development on the board headquarters site that would house a McMaster downtown family medical centre. The city is eyeing the space for its public health department, which it had previously pegged for the Lister Block.

Council is also asking the province to let the city keep the $7 million it donated with great fanfare to the Lister project for other downtown initiatives.

Eisenberger said the city is still interested in being part of the Lister project in some cheaper form. He wants to ask the building's owner, Labourers' International Union of North America (LIUNA), about tearing down the building and rebuilding by replicating the facade -- the same plan first approved by council and stopped by the province.

"Replication is a far sight better than nothing at all," he said, adding he doesn't think the province would intervene again.

But Tim McCabe, the city's general manager of planning and economic development, and LIUNA vice-president Joe Mancinelli agreed its unlikely the province would let the wrecking ball swing.

"I don't think that's possible at this time," said Mancinelli, adding he has no other plans for the building.

The province didn't designate the Lister Block as a heritage building but it did rule the landmark was significant and could be saved. Provincial cabinet ministers refused to comment about the building's future until council has its final vote on the deal tomorrow night.

Mountain MPP Sophia Aggelonitis is meeting with the mayor and the developers Friday to discuss possible solutions to retaining the old commercial mall in the downtown core.

Councillor Brian McHattie, who asked the province to intervene and was heralded as a hero when the government offered funding, was dismayed by council's decision yesterday. He fought to ask LIUNA for more information to justify its numbers and to have the province complete a peer review of the costs to continue negotiations to lower the cost.

His motion failed 8-5.

"I think the whole thing is done now," said McHattie, who believes the city played into LIUNA's hands.

"A vote to end negotiations is a vote to demolish the Lister," agreed Councillor Sam Merulla.

LIUNA, which was partnering with Hi-Rise Group for the restoration, blames the higher lease price on the increased costs of renovating versus building new.

This marks the third time a plan to restore the heritage building has fallen through. In 1995 a proposal to turn the building into student housing failed. Five years later, Ottawa also rejected the site for the federal building later built on Bay Street North.

Harry Stinson, once known as Toronto's Condo King, watched yesterday's debate. He has expressed interest in buying the Lister Block, but Mancinelli maintains it's not for sale.

[coalminecanary]

when did LIUNA buy the building and for how much

and who can we write to at the provincial level about demolition etc?

[flar]

I'm extremely disappointed at Eisenberger's support of demolition. And I really fail to see the point of replicating Lister. For one, it can't be done, replicated buildings looks stupid. Secondly, if it's demolished why wouldn't they build something better?

And why won't LIUNA sell? This whole fiasco is disgusting and reminds me of the Talbot Block debacle in London a few years ago. Talbot block met the wrecking ball very suddenly one quiet Sunday morning, then its facade was very poorly replicated on the corner of the John Labatt Centre.

[SteelTown]

It's another example of a complete lack of leadership from Mayor Fred. If he had any leadership or vision he would request parts of $7 million go towards buying out LIUNA from the Lister Block and then put the building on the market.

But nope.

[DC83]

I'm speechless re: Lister... so I wont even start.

As for the Public Health Dept; maybe they can locate in the old schoolboard bldg so that the School Board can build new in the lot behind it?

OH WAIT, this is Hamilton after-all... I'm sure someone will deem it too "unsafe" to work in and will have it demo'd too!

[markbarbera]

While I am not impressed by Mayor Fred's leadership style as seen to date, the council decision on the lease agreement was the correct one. Despite my love for the Lister Block, there is no way City Hall could justify agreeing to the new leasing rate.

Personally, I think the financing deal was purposely engineered to unravel in this manner. LIUNA has not secured a phase two tenant, despite all the talk of Mohawk having an interest in the building. I think LIUNA is ready to walk away from the project, and this was the out. I predict they will sell the building within the next few months to a new developer. This would be a prime candidate for Braley's downtown health centre. The new Board of Education could be accomodated in the second phase of the Lister, and Public Health could locate in the former BOard of Ed site at Bay and Main one renovated.

Having said that, I still think it would be ideal if Lister was redevloped for residential use. It would make a super loft conversion project. It was interesting to see Harry Stinson in the audience of the council meeting. I wonder if he is thinking the same thing...

[raisethehammer]

frustrating day in the Hammer. this happens too often in this town.....

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

While I am not impressed by Mayor Fred's leadership style as seen to date, the council decision on the lease agreement was the correct one. Despite my love for the Lister Block, there is no way City Hall could justify agreeing to the new leasing rate.

Personally, I think the financing deal was purposely engineered to unravel in this manner. LIUNA has not secured a phase two tenant, despite all the talk of Mohawk having an interest in the building. I think LIUNA is ready to walk away from the project, and this was the out. I predict they will sell the building within the next few months to a new developer. This would be a prime candidate for Braden's downtown health centre. The new Board of Education could be accomodated in the second phase of the Lister, and Public Health could locate in the former BOard of Ed site at Bay and Main one renovated.

Having said that, I still think it would be ideal if Lister was redevloped for residential use. It would make a super loft conversion project. It was interesting to see Harry Stinson in the audience of the council meeting. I wonder if he is thinking the same thing...

some of us at the Bad Dog were chatting this morning about this and I threw out that possibility..maybe LIUNA did this knowing that they have a buyer behind the scenes. Maybe they figured, we'll try to gain an obsene amount from the city and if that doesn't work, we'll sell it.
That would be best scenario in my books.

[flar]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

the council decision on the lease agreement was the correct one

without a doubt

[coalminecanary]

No doubt they shouldn't bend over and take the $37 figure, but the anti-city hall spin on this story is sickening. LIUNA is the culprit here, and they have Mancinelli quoted in the article whining about how evil the city is. Give it up buddy, you are the one wanting constant gov't bailout money to develop a project which any other sane developer would jump at with no free money being thrown at them. If LIUNA sells that building, I'm throwing a party for all Hamilton SSP people because it will be the brightest day in Lister's recent history. I'm not getting my hopes up yet.

The fact that they want to demo and rebuild just reinforces the theory that they are purely in blackmail mode now. If they so desperately want to build a new building, there are tonnes of empty lots in Hamilton ripe for the picking. The only reason they want to do it there is because they want to leverage the emotions and politics of Lister to their advantage.

If the final plan is demo-rebuild, I don't think the city should give them a dime. Once the ball hits that building, it's no more than a parking lot and we don't owe LIUNA anything at all under the guise of historical rejuvenation. You want to build new? Sell Lister and find another empty lot.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

No doubt they shouldn't bend over and take the $37 figure, but the anti-city hall spin on this story is sickening. LIUNA is the culprit here, and they have Mancinelli quoted in the article whining about how evil the city is. Give it up buddy, you are the one wanting constant gov't bailout money to develop a project which any other sane developer would jump at with no free money being thrown at them. If LIUNA sells that building, I'm throwing a party for all Hamilton SSP people because it will be the brightest day in Lister's recent history. I'm not getting my hopes up yet.

The fact that they want to demo and rebuild just reinforces the theory that they are purely in blackmail mode now. If they so desperately want to build a new building, there are tonnes of empty lots in Hamilton ripe for the picking. The only reason they want to do it there is because they want to leverage the emotions and politics of Lister to their advantage.

If the final plan is demo-rebuild, I don't think the city should give them a dime. Once the ball hits that building, it's no more than a parking lot and we don't owe LIUNA anything at all under the guise of historical rejuvenation. You want to build new? Sell Lister and find another empty lot.

right on!

[HAMRetrofit]

Just be done with it and expropriate. This group is a waste of time and they have no regard for property upkeep and security.

Renovate the property as municipal land.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

frustrating day in the Hammer. this happens too often in this town.....

It happens over and over because this City wants to constantly live in the past rather than look to the future. If the city and all the special interest groups would have kept their noses out of it, I think we would have at least seen something happening there, demolition or not.

When I drove into Mississauga today and saw all the new towers going up by the City Centre I was reminded of that fact. Say what you will about Mississauga, it is moving forward and we are falling further behind.

If you thought the big Toronto developers were going to stay away before, just you wait...they won't be able to give Lister away for free.