United Gulf towers | ~90m | 27 fl | Approved

[cormiermax]

what a great project, what a loss.

[fenwick16]

It isn't dead yet that I know of. The city might just extend the development agreement.

[Wishblade]

I believe the developer plans to start in approx. 2 years if an extension is granted.

[fenwick16]

If the city doesn't extend the Development Agreement, I wonder if United Gulf can appeal to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board.

The models by United Gulf are not very detailed, especially the podium section. It makes me wonder how close this will be to the final model.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by alps

if these never come through I'm pulling a Someone123 and moving to Vancouver.

I've never seen that second drawing before. It appears to not have any of the twists in the design?! But I do really like the look of the entrance to the slender tower.

[fenwick16]

This would look great from George's Island. I hope that it will go ahead.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The only way that I can see this proceeding with towers of the proposed height would be if United Gulf gets an extension on their development agreement. If a new developer takes over and makes a new proposal then they might be required to follow the new HRMbyDesign height restrictions for that site (about 21 residential storeys, with bonus height 66m, as opposed to rampart maximum height as it was before). http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistric...signManual.pdf - page 56 of 141

Probably the current soft condo and hotel markets have a lot to do with it. This is why Halifax needs the new convention centre to bring more visitors downtown (just my opinion).

Are you sure about that? It seems like once these lots are approved, then as of right development can go on indefinitely. The Triangle Lands (International Place) was approved decades ago, and has been through many design iterations since.. as well as the Paramount apartments on South Park. Approved in the 80's or 90's I think, nothing ever happened.. then one day out of the blue, up goes a crane.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Are you sure about that? It seems like once these lots are approved, then as of right development can go on indefinitely. The Triangle Lands (International Place) was approved decades ago, and has been through many design iterations since.. as well as the Paramount apartments on South Park. Approved in the 80's or 90's I think, nothing ever happened.. then one day out of the blue, up goes a crane.

I don't know that this is the same situation since they have a 5 year development agreement. I hope that they do have a right of development. (It is strange thought that the height limit in the Downtown Halifax Land Use ByLaws has been reduced for this lot).

Initially this development was rejected by HRM council and then I think that United Gulf had to appeal to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board to have it approved. If that is the case then the HRM council might not want to extend the Development Agreement. This is just conjecture, and I hope that my conjecture is completely wrong.

[someone123]

They started adding deadlines to the development agreements a few years ago because some were left orphaned for decades. That being said, many extensions to more recent development agreements seem very perfunctory.

This project is not "dead", but I am not sure how the process works if it is voted down at council. Either way the land is still owned by UG.

[fenwick16]

I just went back and checked the facts on this one. The HRM council actually approved this one 15-5 back in 2006. It makes me wonder how projects that are overwhelming approved can get bogged down in appeals. ( http://dcnonl.com/article/id24399 ).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Are you sure about that? It seems like once these lots are approved, then as of right development can go on indefinitely. The Triangle Lands (International Place) was approved decades ago, and has been through many design iterations since.. as well as the Paramount apartments on South Park. Approved in the 80's or 90's I think, nothing ever happened.. then one day out of the blue, up goes a crane.

I decided to check this a bit further. In this report http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...taffReport.pdf - page 21 of 67 (of the .pdf file) it states that the development should proceed within 4 years of signing the development agreement between the municipality and United Gulf . This was approved on March 21 2006 http://www.halifax.ca/council/documents/C060321.pdf - page 20 of 30 of the pdf file. The Development Agreement had to be signed within 120 days of that date.

Voting for were Councillors Streatch, Hendsbee, McInroy, Younger, Karsten, Kent, Smith, Wile, Uteck, Fougere, Hum, Johns, Harvey, Goucher and Rankin

Voting against were: Mayor Kelly and Councillors Snow, McCluskey, Murphy and Sloane

Based on all of what I have found on the HRM website, the development agreement is set to expire sometime in late March 2010. (i.e. this month). Since the approval of this project was appealed to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board and passed in October 2007 ( http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=139678 ) that might affect the term of the development agreement.

I hope that it will go ahead. It will depend on whether or not the HRM council extends the development agreement. Since United Gulf owns the land they could always submit another proposal if the agreement isn't extended.

[someone123]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the deadline was set before or after URB. It's pretty unfair to set deadlines and then have an appeals process of random length. The real "approval" date for UG was when the URB decision came out, which was released in September 2007. I wonder if council even can enforce these deadlines given what happened. I wonder if the HRM even can enforce the deadline in this case..?

Here is the PDF: http://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nsuarb/d...7nsuarb122.pdf

It's crazy that it took 1.5 years for the appeal alone in this case. Had the development proceeded after council approval it's very possible that it would have gotten built in a timely manner.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the deadline was set before or after URB. It's pretty unfair to set deadlines and then have an appeals process of random length. The real "approval" date for UG was when the URB decision came out, which was released in September 2007. I wonder if council even can enforce these deadlines given what happened. I wonder if the HRM even can enforce the deadline in this case..?

Here is the PDF: http://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nsuarb/d...7nsuarb122.pdf

It's crazy that it took 1.5 years for the appeal alone in this case. Had the development proceeded after council approval it's very possible that it would have gotten built in a timely manner.

I read somewhere that the new Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law has simplified the development process. Is it still possible for the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia to appeal any decision of the HRM council? If it is, then the appeal process should be expedited - for example any appeal should be determined within 3 months of the appeal. I keep hoping that these constant appeals will come to an end.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I read somewhere that the new Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law has simplified the development process. Is it still possible for the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia to appeal any decision of the HRM council? If it is, then the appeal process should be expedited - for example any appeal should be determined within 3 months of the appeal. I keep hoping that these constant appeals will come to an end.

I believe appeals of the Downtown Land Use By-law go to Council. Can anyone confirm this?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

I believe appeals of the Downtown Land Use By-law go to Council. Can anyone confirm this?

I looked it up and found this ( http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistric...signManual.pdf ):

(15) A decision by the Committee to approve, approve with conditions, or deny a substantive site plan approval may be appealed to Council in accordance with the Halifax Regional Municipality Charter.

I guess what has changed with the new By-Laws, is that it is much clearer in terms of what structure and height can be built in each downtown section. In the past the Municipal By-Laws were quite vague and could therefore be easily appealed on just about any grounds by the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board. However, since the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board is a provincial organization their rules likely haven't changed. So, if their rules haven't changed then the Heritage Trust, or vice versa a developer, will likely still be able to appeal just about any decision (they might not have much success though if council's decision follows the rules in the new By-Laws, other than to delay developments). Hopefully the appeals process will be sped up by the clarity provided in the new By-Laws. (This is all conjecture on my part - if I am wrong then please let me know).

[someone123]

I'm not sure what the overall process is but I think that staff handle quantitative aspects of the site plan approval process while the rest is supposed to be handled by design review committee. It seems like it's no longer possible to appeal on the basis of things like height, which makes way more sense and was a big reason for having all of this in the first place, but I've never really seen a clear description of the full process.

[fenwick16]

I am not sure if this applies or not:

In as-of-right situations, completed permit and subdivision applications made prior to Council's first notice of it's intention to adopt new or amended planning strategies and bylaws are entitled to be reviewed for approval based on the requirements in effect on the day their applications were filed with the Municipality. Staff cannot withhold approval if the application meets all relevant regulations in effect at the time of the application. on page 10 of 21 of this pdf file: http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...0112ca1113.pdf .

The statement above came from a document on grandfathering of projects, however, the UG project was not grandfathered; it was already approved.

I am not sure if the United Golf development is considered to be as-of-right, however, if it is judged based on the By-Laws in effect at the time it was approved, then I think that it should be ok, if it gets an extension. There are all sorts of conflicting statements, so it would take a lawyer to figure it out.

[someone123]

There were some details about this today on Allnovascotia.

The developer plans to start by 2012, which is the end of the original 5-year period granted by the 2007 development agreement.

Apparently he wants to finish up the second Waterton tower. The first tower was complete a couple of years ago but the second was delayed due to legal issues.

Slightly disappointing to see more delays but it's good to see that this project is still alive. Needless to say, if it's built it will be a huge benefit for the downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

My understanding of the process is that with an appeal - the whole thing goes on pause. So the approval date changes if the URB appeal leaves the decision to approve the project and thus would reflect the date of the decision of the URB - that's how I understand it. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

So that should give them more time too get started and they can certainly apply to extend. I don't see any reason why council wouldn't allow an extension; although I'm sure that the same people who voted against the project will do so with an extension (the principle of the matter).

I suspect that UG would rather apply for an extension versus going through the whole thing again. I'm not surprised that they've delayed the project though. With office demand in Halifax being rather soft, it's probably in their best interest to let the economy stabilize and show some signs of life. Plus it may be more difficult for them to obtain financing in light of the economy (although they may have already secured it).

[someone123]

The state reason for the delay is that they are working on other projects and can only take on so much at once.

I would also imagine that financing is an issue for this project. It's not really an office project, however. It's split residential/hotel with 100,000 sq. ft. of combined commercial space in the "mixed use podium" (office + retail).