PHILADELPHIA | 8th & Race | 185 FT | 12 FLOORS | CANCELLED

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
It should be put up for sale and developed as residential apt or condos. I think it would do well based on the location for it.

The Sixers should buy this lot and the roundhouse lot to make a stadium proposal. Although the Sixers were hoping to get $800 million given to them so I'm sure this won't be up to their standards. A stadium + a BSL Ridge spur station makeover would be very cool here. That station is so underused currently.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by McBane

The Roundhouse is a hideous, anti-urbanist nightmare. It's gotta go. And I imagine the interior isn't good either. I don't know if it makes sense to retrofit it for other uses. But I will literally shit a brick if some asshole attempts to protect it as historical. It would not surprise me (see the South Broad Health Center).

Why not tear it down and, together with the adjacent parking lot, perhaps the Sixers can build an arena here? That makes the 800 Race site more marketable, although we'd have to accept a garage being at least part of the package. Or does the subway run under this site, too?

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I’ve been saying the same things.

The Roundhouse isn’t just putrid; it’s falling apart. The whole reason the police are leaving is because it is one falling rafter away from being condemned. I’ve heard estimates in the millions for rehabilitation.

Why spend millions of dollars restoring an arguably “historical” structure that is inarguably detrimental to the urban fabric of the city, when it could be demolished and something much newer, better looking, and safer could be built in its place?

The building is a gem inside and out. Take a closer look. It needs to be cleaned and opened up at the street level. I understand it's not the most popular style, but unless you're Paris, great cities need a variety of architectural styles. You're simply not going to do better than this on this stretch of Race in the next fifty years.

If you have a source for renovation cost estimates, please share.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Justin7

The building is a gem inside and out. Take a closer look. It needs to be cleaned and opened up at the street level. I understand it's not the most popular style, but unless you're Paris, great cities need a variety of architectural styles. You're simply not going to do better than this on this stretch of Race in the next fifty years.

If you have a source for renovation cost estimates, please share.

Agreed totally. Definitely no demo. Rehab it for residential or even commercial office space as a 2nd option. Here's a good article about it:

https://whyy.org/articles/building-s...he-roundhouse/

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Agreed totally. Definitely no demo. Rehab it for residential or even commercial office space as a 2nd option. Here's a good article about it:

https://whyy.org/articles/building-s...he-roundhouse/

I've never seen inside but it's incredibly ugly outside and uses the lot so inefficiently. The city should sell the lot to the highest bidder so something that meets the sidewalk can be built.

[eixample]

Wow, some serious diversity of opinion on the roundhouse. I am generally a preservationist, but mixed feelings about this building (maybe because of its police baggage and being in a part of town I generally dislike). From what I remember, it seems kind of up on a pedestal and away fr the street, which I'm usually not a fan of. It is definitely distinct.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I’m like 90% sure the site isn’t gonna work due to the broad-ridge spur, and the size. A lot this small would require digging down to put the court level below street level. And with the BSL that’s just not possible here. It’s a great site for commercial, but I just don’t see how the Sixers could work here. If our engineering could prove me wrong, I’d be all about it, I just don’t think it’s possible based on my (limited) understanding of small-site stadium engineering.

TD Garden up in Boston is built on top of North Station. An arena here is reasonable if it isn't sunken (the Chinatown line tunnel is pretty shallow). The main issue would be avoiding the train tunnels with the footings, but the core of an arena would be a massive void = no structural footings necessary where the underground infrastructure is most complex.

Pennrose doesn't seem interested in giving the site up, though.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Justin7

The building is a gem inside and out. Take a closer look. It needs to be cleaned and opened up at the street level. I understand it's not the most popular style, but unless you're Paris, great cities need a variety of architectural styles. You're simply not going to do better than this on this stretch of Race in the next fifty years.

If you have a source for renovation cost estimates, please share.

It’s an urbanism nightmare, set back from the street, surrounded by walls and concrete - a relic of a scarier, John Carpenter-ish Philadelphia. The idea of the building is cool, and I’ve always loved the design, but to suggest that park-front property - on a dope park by the way - in modern day center city “can’t do better in the next 50 years” is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

It’s an urbanism nightmare, set back from the street, surrounded by walls and concrete - a relic of a scarier, John Carpenter-ish Philadelphia. The idea of the building is cool, and I’ve always loved the design, but to suggest that park-front property - on a dope park by the way - in modern day center city “can’t do better in the next 50 years” is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.

Thank you. Agree completely.

And the idea that it just needs to be cleaned... It's a police station, no matter what you want it to be, there's no getting around the interior is in need of serious work to be workable as another use.

And the exterior at ground level is maybe a contender for least urban building in all of center city? Maybe not, but I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest it is. It is literally purposely hostile to those walking past it.

And it's not like you can just tear down those terrible walls and call it a day. You're still left with setback walls with no windows until you're 10 feet above sidewalk level. The entire way it meets the street needs to be reworked. It would not just be a lot of work and expensive, but it's for little pay-off. Not including the dungeonlike basement, there's not even 100,000 sq ft in the place. Seems like a lot of expensive remodeling for what? 30-40 apartments or condos at most? How does that math work?

The only way I see private development willingly taking this project on is if they added some floors on top. But then, with a completely reworked first floor and floors added on top, it'll barely even resemble the building they're trying to save.

Look I'm in no rush to tear it down. We can wait and see what happens. But if a developer comes along with a solid plan to tear it down and build a new project here, I don't see any real compelling reasons to stand in the way of that development.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Thank you. Agree completely.

And the idea that it just needs to be cleaned... It's a police station, no matter what you want it to be, there's no getting around the interior is in need of serious work to be workable as another use.

And the exterior at ground level is maybe a contender for least urban building in all of center city? Maybe not, but I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest it is. It is literally purposely hostile to those walking past it.

And it's not like you can just tear down those terrible walls and call it a day. You're still left with setback walls with no windows until you're 10 feet above sidewalk level. The entire way it meets the street needs to be reworked. It would not just be a lot of work and expensive, but it's for little pay-off. Not including the dungeonlike basement, there's not even 100,000 sq ft in the place. Seems like a lot of expensive remodeling for what? 30-40 apartments or condos at most? How does that math work?

The only way I see private development willingly taking this project on is if they added some floors on top. But then, with a completely reworked first floor and floors added on top, it'll barely even resemble the building they're trying to save.

Look I'm in no rush to tear it down. We can wait and see what happens. But if a developer comes along with a solid plan to tear it down and build a new project here, I don't see any real compelling reasons to stand in the way of that development.

Again, I understand most people do not appreciate this style of architecture, but please try to set aside the subjective for a moment and imagine this is something you can find beauty in.

Is it anti-urban as is? Of course. It couldn't be much worse (still better than a garage though).

However, when I suggest it be "opened up" at the street level, I'm not only speaking of the outer walls. If you look at the first floor facade you can see that it appears to have been designed to have the space between each column filled with glass, as it currently is around the entrance. This is an obvious fix that would unite the interior and exterior of the building. See the renovation of the Johnson wing of the Boston Public Library (a structure I personally find ugly both before and after) for an example of the kind of difference this can make. Use your imagination.

The entrance to the interior remains significantly set back from the street. Few urbanists would suggest repeating this, but there is room in Philadelphia for sculptural architecture and there are few locations better suited. I'm curious: would you all consider the parkway museums anti-urban?

What would replace this if it were torn down? Look at the street and the surrounding buildings. Seventy feet of road surface approaching the bridge is treated almost as a highway. Look at the facades one block in either direction. Or a block further to the back of the Constitution Center and then even worse, the Mint. For something more contemporary see the shiny new four story wood framed budget special at the northwest corner of fourth and race. And let's not ignore the half dozen parking lots a minute's walk away... or the two dozen you'll hit in 5 minutes.

We're so fast to accept (or even suggest) teardowns around here. The building is 60 years old. Yes it will need renovations. This is given in the evolution of any aging building. But is a police HQ materially different from an office building? As for any "baggage" concerning it's current (soon to be former?) use as a cop shop where myriad bad and unjust decisions have been made, would anything be more satisfying (even poetic) than turning it into a center for equal justice. Take a portion of police funding to finance the renovations.

[summersm343]

I'm fine with any development that incorporates the roundhouse into a larger overall redevelopment of the block, but keeping the roundhouse as-is with it's surface lots, wall facing Race Street, and overall anti-urban form? No thank you.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Again, I understand most people do not appreciate this style of architecture, but please try to set aside the subjective for a moment and imagine this is something you can find beauty in.

Is it anti-urban as is? Of course. It couldn't be much worse (still better than a garage though).

However, when I suggest it be "opened up" at the street level, I'm not only speaking of the outer walls. If you look at the first floor facade you can see that it appears to have been designed to have the space between each column filled with glass, as it currently is around the entrance. This is an obvious fix that would unite the interior and exterior of the building. See the renovation of the Johnson wing of the Boston Public Library (a structure I personally find ugly both before and after) for an example of the kind of difference this can make. Use your imagination.

The entrance to the interior remains significantly set back from the street. Few urbanists would suggest repeating this, but there is room in Philadelphia for sculptural architecture and there are few locations better suited. I'm curious: would you all consider the parkway museums anti-urban?

What would replace this if it were torn down? Look at the street and the surrounding buildings. Seventy feet of road surface approaching the bridge is treated almost as a highway. Look at the facades one block in either direction. Or a block further to the back of the Constitution Center and then even worse, the Mint. For something more contemporary see the shiny new four story wood framed budget special at the northwest corner of fourth and race. And let's not ignore the half dozen parking lots a minute's walk away... or the two dozen you'll hit in 5 minutes.

We're so fast to accept (or even suggest) teardowns around here. The building is 60 years old. Yes it will need renovations. This is given in the evolution of any aging building. But is a police HQ materially different from an office building? As for any "baggage" concerning it's current (soon to be former?) use as a cop shop where myriad bad and unjust decisions have been made, would anything be more satisfying (even poetic) than turning it into a center for equal justice. Take a portion of police funding to finance the renovations.

Don't get me wrong. It's not that i don't see the aesthetic appeal. I absolutely do. For a style of architecture so maligned for lacking grace and beauty, I don't think the roundhouse really falls into those traps. It's an impressive looking building.

But this city isn't a museum. Aesthetics alone isn't enough for me to call for preservation. Most of Philadelphia's historic buildings are excellent contributions to the urban fabric of this city. Fighting for sound urban principles and preservation is a fight that often goes hand in hand. That isn't the case here. This building can't just be preserved, it needs some fundamental reworking which leads me to question if all the work that needs to go into preserving and reworking make the price tag too high for private redevelopment?

And pointing out all the terrible nearby buildings and poorly designed street don't help your case here. At least for me. To me that just means this area is in desperate need of some functional buildings that will take advantage of Franklin Square and get some momentum going here.

Again, I wouldn't tear this down for just anything. But if someone has a good project for this parcel that would help this area out, I wouldn't turn it down just on the basis of a hope that the roundhouse will ever be suitably redeveloped in the future.

And finally, while I'm all for cutting the police budget, they're are a million things I'd put that money towards before putting it toward the preservation of the former police headquarters.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Again, I understand most people do not appreciate this style of architecture, but please try to set aside the subjective for a moment and imagine this is something you can find beauty in.

Is it anti-urban as is? Of course. It couldn't be much worse (still better than a garage though).

However, when I suggest it be "opened up" at the street level, I'm not only speaking of the outer walls. If you look at the first floor facade you can see that it appears to have been designed to have the space between each column filled with glass, as it currently is around the entrance. This is an obvious fix that would unite the interior and exterior of the building. See the renovation of the Johnson wing of the Boston Public Library (a structure I personally find ugly both before and after) for an example of the kind of difference this can make. Use your imagination.

The entrance to the interior remains significantly set back from the street. Few urbanists would suggest repeating this, but there is room in Philadelphia for sculptural architecture and there are few locations better suited. I'm curious: would you all consider the parkway museums anti-urban?

What would replace this if it were torn down? Look at the street and the surrounding buildings. Seventy feet of road surface approaching the bridge is treated almost as a highway. Look at the facades one block in either direction. Or a block further to the back of the Constitution Center and then even worse, the Mint. For something more contemporary see the shiny new four story wood framed budget special at the northwest corner of fourth and race. And let's not ignore the half dozen parking lots a minute's walk away... or the two dozen you'll hit in 5 minutes.

We're so fast to accept (or even suggest) teardowns around here. The building is 60 years old. Yes it will need renovations. This is given in the evolution of any aging building. But is a police HQ materially different from an office building? As for any "baggage" concerning it's current (soon to be former?) use as a cop shop where myriad bad and unjust decisions have been made, would anything be more satisfying (even poetic) than turning it into a center for equal justice. Take a portion of police funding to finance the renovations.

Scrolling up from the bottom and reading this comment, how did I guess it was Justin7? You seem to be our resident contrarian on everything.

To me, preservation is a means to an end, a way to ensure our city's architecture is diverse, attractive, and urbane. We want a nice mixture of new and old, I get it. But this building adds NOTHING of value to the city's streetscape. The ONLY thing preserving it does is allow a small minority to lecture everyone else about how this type of architecture is important, even though most people despise it.

And preserving a building simply because it's architecture is unique means nothing if that architecture is ugly and detracts from the urban experience. Here is a great example of mid-century architecture when hardly anyone wanted to live in Philly. Let's preserve it! And these warehouses along Washington Ave break up the monotony of homes and stores that dominate CC and must be preserved. And of course, this lovely gas station in Old City! What a gem, there's nothing else like it in all of Center City! And think of all those garage-fronted, prefab brick townhomes that have gone up across the city - in 50 years, are people going to want to preserve them as an example of "early 21st century architecture?" Yeah, that's how silly people sound like when they advocate preserving shit just because it's "unique."

I'll also echo's Allovertown's comment that it's not the building design per se, it's how decidedly anti-urban it is. This is a rough stretch of Race Street, awful to walk down and buildings like the Roundhouse are the reason why. If we have an opportunity to replace it with something that meets the street, activates the area with people, and doesn't sit behind a blank wall, I'm all for it.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by McBane

The ONLY thing preserving it does is allow a small minority to lecture everyone else about how this type of architecture is important, even though most people despise it.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you since the Roundhouse's problems go beyond aesthetics as you have outlined but your quoted line was used as justification for the destruction of this:


(credit: Wikipedia)

"Poor urban design" and "no longer functional" may be good reasons for replacement but in my mind, "people despise it" is not.

[McBane]

Right, the masses said the same thing about City Hall. Ugly/attractive is more subjective than good urban design principles. It just so happens that the Roundhouse is both ugly AND lacks good urban design. But I don't want my post to be construed as, "let's knock down the Roundhouse because it's ugly." No, that only plays a minor part in it.

Our friends in Boston will have a much more meaningful discussion down the road whenever their much loathed City Hall becomes obsolete.

I know architecture styles go in and out of style but will we ever see a "rediscovery" of Brutalism the way architects recreate, say, Art Deco, Victorian, or Georgian/Colonial, etc.?

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Don't get me wrong. It's not that i don't see the aesthetic appeal. I absolutely do. For a style of architecture so maligned for lacking grace and beauty, I don't think the roundhouse really falls into those traps. It's an impressive looking building.

But this city isn't a museum. Aesthetics alone isn't enough for me to call for preservation. Most of Philadelphia's historic buildings are excellent contributions to the urban fabric of this city. Fighting for sound urban principles and preservation is a fight that often goes hand in hand. That isn't the case here. This building can't just be preserved, it needs some fundamental reworking which leads me to question if all the work that needs to go into preserving and reworking make the price tag too high for private redevelopment?

And pointing out all the terrible nearby buildings and poorly designed street don't help your case here. At least for me. To me that just means this area is in desperate need of some functional buildings that will take advantage of Franklin Square and get some momentum going here.

Again, I wouldn't tear this down for just anything. But if someone has a good project for this parcel that would help this area out, I wouldn't turn it down just on the basis of a hope that the roundhouse will ever be suitably redeveloped in the future.

And finally, while I'm all for cutting the police budget, they're are a million things I'd put that money towards before putting it toward the preservation of the former police headquarters.

I respect your opinion and the point you're trying to make, but we're probably not going to agree on this. (Ironically, despite the fact that find myself arguing with you again, I generally agree with you much more than I agree with most of the people here so please don't take anything personally.)

I can imagine this building with the walls cleared away, the concrete cleaned up, the street level with clear glass. I can imagine lush landscaping and benches, a cafe in the 7th street wing opening to outdoor seating across from Franklin Square. I can see thoughtfully designed unique building with a ton of potential. Not fulfilling that potential would be a great loss. I guess the primary disagreement here is that while I would not build a dozen of these across the city, I think a singular (renovated!) roundhouse is an addition to quality urbanism, not a detraction.

Yes, I feel much more strongly about preservation than most (all?) people on this forum. I often hear that "the city is not a museum," but I think what you mean is that is not only a museum. Cities are the best museums, though of course that is not their primary function. What is Philadelphia without its history?

Parking lots abound in this are. Why not build those out first before considering tearing this down? Some will call this an oversimplification, and maybe that's true, but it shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by McBane

Scrolling up from the bottom and reading this comment, how did I guess it was Justin7? You seem to be our resident contrarian on everything.

It's true I disagree about most things with most people around here, and as such usually don't take the time to post much more than a snide comment here and there. There's not really a better place for building updates in Philadelphia though, so I hang around. I greatly appreciate those who take the time to keep us informed, even if I don't think especially highly of many of the opinions posted.

So, I'm not sure if the above was intended as an insult, but it's certainly accurate. Cheers. Though I'm not sure what posting street views of a bunch of unrelated and inferior buildings brings to the discussion.

[iheartphilly]

Interesting to see the MetroClub condo in proximity to the Roundhouse. MetroClub has a similar shape.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by Justin7

I can imagine this building with the walls cleared away, the concrete cleaned up, the street level with clear glass. I can imagine lush landscaping and benches, a cafe in the 7th street wing opening to outdoor seating across from Franklin Square. I can see thoughtfully designed unique building with a ton of potential. Not fulfilling that potential would be a great loss. I guess the primary disagreement here is that while I would not build a dozen of these across the city, I think a singular (renovated!) roundhouse is an addition to quality urbanism, not a detraction.

I kind of see what you are envisioning. Maybe a model would be the Rohm and Haas building at 6th and Market that also is built on a podium but has a cafe, beer garden and landscaping that enliven the public space.

[El Duderino]

the roundhouse is a unique building in a unique (and weird and slightly undesirable and heavily underutilized) location. Many of the destroyed buildings that have been the biggest losses in the city haven’t even been in the urban fabric (see the centennial buildings in west fairmount park).

and with a little creativity, this could be an amazing asset - tearing down the walls, completely redoing the landscaping, turning it into a place where the history of the building is referenced, explained and is opened for discussion and understanding could/should be the minimum. An overbuild that accentuates the design while building a complimentary tower on the huge parking lot to the immediate south of here would be the type of program this area needs. A building that goes up to the curb here would make it even less friendly to pedestrians than it is currently; no one is going for a casual stroll along this stretch to window shop. Having landscaping in place of the roundhouse wall would complement Franklin Square and Metroclub across the street in about the best way possible. Disclosure: i actually really like brutalism and think we are destroying it way too off-hand.

If people want to complain about the anti-urbanism in the area, i encourage them to push for an appropriate road diet immediately in front of this building before tearing it down for another 401 Race.

[iheartphilly]

^^
Agree with Justin and El Duderino on additions/improvements to the outside space to transform the use and interaction of this bunker style bldg, and with proper outside lighting too and replacing the ground level large opening of the roundhouse with transparent glass, this would be something amazing and different rather than the typical glass boxes that gets built around the city. In addition, constructing a new bldg on the parking lot to complement the roundhouse would be pleasing and would make economic sense if major renovation were needed for the roundhouse. could offset additional expenses from the roundhouse. just need creative and capable people and a vision to make it work. no doubt that it can be done.

[McBane]

Reading the last few comments, I suppose I could be a bit more flexible. Ultimately, when the police vacate it, I want something that will activate the area and be more urban and attractive. If that can be achieved through preservation and adaptive re-use, I could be down with that. But I wouldn't want that to be etched in stone and thus limit the number of possibilities. Especially knowing that adaptive re-use - in a way that is consistent with good urban design - may be prohibitively expensive.

Look, this is an extreme example but if the choice came down between a bunch of non-profits or another city agency that can't afford any exterior renovations VS a demolition and replacement with a basic midrise residential glass box with ground floor retail, I'd say goodbye to the RH in a heartbeat.