How did Canada become more culturally public transit than the US?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Canadian cities aren't more dense than their American equivalents. Toronto is most analogous to Chicago and they are at just about the same density. Montreal and Boston seem like fair comparisons, and same there too.

That may be true with city propers, transit users frequently cross municipal boundaries. If you compare urban areas, Chicago has 8,671,746 people living at or above the minimum density threshold to be considered urban with an average density of 1,432.1/km2, while Toronto the 5,647,656 people meeting that threshold have a density of 3,087.8/km2. Similarly with Montreal, the urban 3,675,219 people at a density of 2,658.4/km2 while Boston has 4,382,009 at 1,021.8/km2. In both cases the US urban areas have less than 1/2 the density. Yes Canada has slightly stricter criteria for places to qualify as urban, but as you can see the metro areas didn't really loose any greater proportion of their population because if it.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by nec209

Compared to the US no. The Dallas Fort Worth has 7 million, Houston mentro 7 million, Miami mentro 6 million, Tampa bay 3 million , New York 19 million, LA 13 million, Chicago 9 million, Philadelphia 6 million, Atlanta 6 million, Detroit 6 million, Phoenix 5 million, San Diego 5 million, Boston 5 million so on. US cities are measured in millions of people.

Toronto only 6 million, Montreal 4 million and Vancouver 2.5 million well the other metros are less.

Yes and still way more Canadian live in a metro over 1 million than due Americans.
Urban Canada is dominated by large cities with ok transit systems while Urban USA is dominated by small cities with not much transit.

The effect on the larger culture, is that big cities with transit system everyone can use is normalized in Canada and their is social pressure to keep transit functioning well.

[JManc]

Canada has 6 metro areas with over 1 million. The US has 54.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by JManc

Canada has 6 metro areas with over 1 million. The US has 54.

That means the US has way more metro cities and spread out well Canada 40 million people are mostly in 6 metro areas so the government can put lot more money into public transit than the US.

But that also means Canada is lot more empty than the US and we know that almost 1/3 Canadians live in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal.

[GreaterMontréal]

Canadian largest cities are also growing much faster than most large US cities. It helps tremendously.

[Crawford]

Montreal actually eked out ahead of Toronto in subway ridership last year.

Either Montreal and Toronto, taken alone, have about the subway ridership of DC, Chicago and Philly subway combined. That's crazy. If the countries were culturally & demographically alike, Toronto and Montreal would have have lower ridership than those cities individually.

[Crawford]

2023 heavy rail ridership, putting aside the NY area, which has the vast majority of U.S./Canadian heavy rail ridership:

Montreal - 304 million
Toronto - 302 million
DC - 136 million
Chicago - 117 million
Boston - 85 million
BART - 46 million
SEPTA - 45 million

DC had a huge rebound. It's clearly the #2 subway system in the U.S. at this point (but yeah, it's sort of cheating in that it's more a hybrid subway/commuter rail system; Chicago still ekes out #2 in U.S. if you count overall rail, due to Metra).

[nec209]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Montreal actually eked out ahead of Toronto in subway ridership last year.

Either Montreal and Toronto, taken alone, have about the subway ridership of DC, Chicago and Philly subway combined. That's crazy. If the countries were culturally & demographically alike, Toronto and Montreal would have have lower ridership than those cities individually.

The thing is when in time did Canada become more public transit culture than the US? Was it the massive European immigration post WW2 unlike the US that had little immigration? The lack of middle class in Canada unlike the US.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

2023 heavy rail ridership, putting aside the NY area, which has the vast majority of U.S./Canadian heavy rail ridership:

Montreal - 304 million
Toronto - 302 million
DC - 136 million
Chicago - 117 million
Boston - 85 million
BART - 46 million
SEPTA - 45 million

DC had a huge rebound. It's clearly the #2 subway system in the U.S. at this point (but yeah, it's sort of cheating in that it's more a hybrid subway/commuter rail system; Chicago still ekes out #2 in U.S. if you count overall rail, due to Metra).

So what are NY numbers though... triple Toronto and Montreal combined?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Nite

The difference is that Canadian live in large (1 million+) metropolitan areas while Americans live in smaller cities

Yeah, that's what I was getting at by showing that 1/3 of Canadians live in the nation's 3 largest cities. That's actually quite amazing for a country of 4M sq mi.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

So what are NY numbers though... double Toronto and Montreal combined?

No longer on the site, but I believe around 2.1 billion?

It isn't really worth comparing, at least in U.S.-Canada.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by pj3000

So what are NY numbers though... triple Toronto and Montreal combined?

Well sure but NY is also larger than Toronto and Montreal combined. In fact, it's about 3x the size of Toronto so it having much higher ridership isn't very notable. Toronto and Montreal having higher ridership than several similarly sized cities combined (or in Chicago's an even larger city) is surprising.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No longer on the site, but I believe around 2.1 billion?

It isn't really worth comparing, at least in U.S.-Canada.

Exactly, so NY is even higher than TRIPLE the ridership of Toronto + Montreal COMBINED. And that's probably just the MTA. I think that can actually put an end to the topic.

To say nothing of Chicago, DC, Philly, Boston, Bay Area, LA, Atlanta...

Winnipeg is the 7th largest area of Canada; Boston is its counterpart at #7 CSA in the US... is Winnipeg "more culturally public transit" than Boston? How about our respective contenders at #3: Vancouver and DC... which is the "more culturally public transit"?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well sure but NY is also larger than Toronto and Montreal combined. In fact, it's about 3x the size of Toronto so it having much higher ridership isn't very notable. Toronto and Montreal having higher ridership than several similarly sized cities combined (or in Chicago's an even larger city) is surprising.

Not when those 2 cities contain a majorly-outsized portion of the entire nation's reason for viablity and its associated population... it's not surprising at all.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Exactly, so NY is even higher than TRIPLE the ridership of Toronto + Montreal COMBINED. And that's probably just the MTA. I think that can actually put an end to the topic.

To say nothing of Chicago, DC, Philly, Boston, Bay Area, LA, Atlanta...

Winnipeg is the 7th largest area of Canada; Boston is its counterpart at #7 CSA in the US... is Winnepeg "more culturally public transit" than Boston? How about our respective contenders at #3: Vancouver and DC... which is the "more cultrually public transit"?

If Winnipeg has the same ridership has Boston or higher I’m shocked

I would never think Winnipeg would have many people taking public transit.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by nec209

If Winnipeg has the same ridership has Boston or higher I’m shocked

I would never think Winnipeg would have many people taking public transit.

Exactly, but that's Canada's 7th largest urban area. So why isn't it "more culturally public transit"?

Because I would think that a top ten largest place (#7) would be pretty high on the public transit list in a nation that is so very much public transit, right?

I mean, Boston at #7 in the US certainly is...

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Not when those 2 cities contain a majorly-outsized portion of the entire nation's reason for viablity and its associated population... it's not surprising at all.

Sorry but I'n not seeing a sound or even coherent argument here. Transit usage tends to be correlated with density, transportation infrastructure design and population size but not with percentage of national population or population ranking within a country.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

What point are you trying to make here? That NKY has abysmal transit? Or that the region continues to experience job sprawl?

That transit ridership can trend downward even as residential population and jobs increase since more people can afford to own cars in 2024 than in 1990. And as long as the United States continues to become wealthier and wealthier, fewer and fewer people who want a car won't be able to afford one.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by JManc

Canada has 6 metro areas with over 1 million. The US has 54.

52% of Canadian live in a metro over 1 million
while only 32% of Americans do.

The majority of Canadian live in large cities while only 1/3 of Americans do
and if Canada used the same definition of metros as the US it would probably be 2/3 of Canadian live in a large metro over a million

Large cities set the Agenda in Canada while they do not in the US
This explains a lot of the difference between the two country in many areas.

Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec city will all reach the 1 million mark in the next decade so the big city dominance in Canada will continue to grow.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Nite

52% of Canadian live in a metro over 1 million
while only 32% of Americans do.

The majority of Canadian live in large cities while only 1/3 of Americans do
and if Canada used the same definition of metros as the US it would probably be 2/3 of Canadian live in a large metro over a million

Large cities set the Agenda in Canada while they do not in the US
This explains a lot of the difference between the two country in many areas.

Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec city will all reach the 1 million mark in the next decade so the big city dominance in Canada will continue to grow.

Right. And I'm estimating here, but a quarter of the population live in Canada's two largest cities... a third in its three largest. The needs of this outsized portion concentrated in few places is certainly going to set national precedent. There's definitely additional contributing factors, but it starts with where all the people are.