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  #11901  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 3:30 AM
cornholio cornholio is offline
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Originally Posted by gkz View Post
I just sent an email to Christy Clark at [email protected] in support of grade-separated Skytrain rather than at-grade LRT for Surrey. I encourage all of you who care about the issue to email her with your opinion as well.

Further thoughts on the LRT plan:
- It will permanently exclude surrounding communities such as Langley from the regional rapid transit network - is that fair?
- It will be more disruptive than grade-separated Skytrain to vehicles (businesses and people who cannot or will not take transit), both during construction and after
To add to your points, heavy LRT used for rapid transit is loud, really loud, plus pedestrians must cross the tracks. Basically you make the flanking properties virtually unlivable unless you turn the LRT to a slow street car, which then no longer is rapid transit but rather a high capacity permanent bus line. Using LRT as "rapid" transit for long distances makes the surrounding properties unlivable on a urban arterial road.
     
     
  #11902  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 3:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkz View Post
I just sent an email to Christy Clark at [email protected] in support of grade-separated Skytrain rather than at-grade LRT for Surrey. I encourage all of you who care about the issue to email her with your opinion as well.

Further thoughts on the LRT plan:
- It will permanently exclude surrounding communities such as Langley from the regional rapid transit network - is that fair?
- It will be more disruptive than grade-separated Skytrain to vehicles (businesses and people who cannot or will not take transit), both during construction and after
Should send that to Todd Stone and the local politicians

One thing idk you guys have realized yet but the Township of Langley Council actually declared opposition to at-grade rail in a recent motion... it's on South Fraser Blog
     
     
  #11903  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 5:03 AM
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Real life experience with LRT

I lived in Calgary for about 5 years in two different locations (one near Deerfoot and McKnight and the other downtown). I currently live in Metro Van I have experience with it as a user, pedestrian, and driver with both LRT and Skytrain. LRT is good but has significant draw backs. Namely: 1. It's wide. The foot print of an LRT line is wider than 2 lanes of traffic. 2. Major and numerous conflict points. Cars vs train, bikes vs train, people vs train usually end up with train winning and the system or at least the line being shut down, sometimes hours at a time. Huge headache and major bottle neck during any time especially rush hour. 3. Operation costs are high. Drivers , driver training and inevitable counciling for the unfortunate who are a part of accidents.

Personally I think sound is comparable to skytrain.
     
     
  #11904  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:01 AM
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GlassCity GlassCity is offline
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I'll agree that the only reason Watts wants LRT is because lots of other cities are doing it and it will somehow prove that Surrey is all modern and stuff. Lots of people have said this already, but I'll say it again: LRT does next to nothing to improve speed and it's not much cheaper than Skytrain. At the end of the day, rapid transit is about speed, not shaping development or looking cooler than a bus. There's not much an LRT can do that a bus can't. Skytrain is definitely the way to go, and I will be absolutely devastated if LRT ends up being built.

Besides, does Surrey even need rapid transit? I took the 96 B-Line just to check it and the area out since I don't get to spend much time in Surrey. All I can say is, the corridors really are not that dense. The "downtown" is decent, but after that it just tapers off into typical suburbia. Extending the 96 to White Rock and making the 501 a B-Line should be more than enough to meet Surrey's transit needs for the foreseeable future.

Also, seeing how many buses I use frequently that would be added to the Frequent Transit Network get me way too excited.
     
     
  #11905  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:12 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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I'm fine with letting Surrey try a light rail line... but it preferably should not happen on the Fraser Hwy corridor. (aka King George + Guildford corridors are good starters.)

Perhaps that sounds counter-intuitive, given that Fraser Hwy also has a pretty wide ROW for LRT to begin with... but I'd rather have SkyTrain bypass the Green Timbers area + cross all the other streets unimpeded.

(If you may recall, according to TransLink's plans, if LRT was to get through the Green Timbers area, it'd have to be at street level and shared with cars!)
     
     
  #11906  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkz View Post
This isn't about Skytrain or any other particular technology, this is about at-grade vs. grade-separated. In Metro Vancouver we tend to call grade-separated rapid transit Skytrain, regardless if it is actually Skytrain or not (eg. The Canada Line is not Skytrain, but most people call it that anyway).
Lol this is a pet peeve, can people stop saying this, just because the E & M lines are Bombardier and the Canada Line is Rotem does not mean the Canada Line isn't Skytrain, Skytrain is not a proprietary technology or strictly tied to Bombardier, Skytrain is a brand created by Translink to encompass all RRT routes in the region and this is reflected on their website.
     
     
  #11907  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:41 AM
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Genauso Genauso is offline
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My apologies in advance for what is a long post that I do not know you have an interest in. I recovered and parsed it from a failed preview form submission due to timeout, so I am resolute in posting it without further editing.
=/=/=/=

Before the Mayor's Council made their announcement today, I figured transit investment would begin waning with the last major projects beginning by 2020 and then decline for a generation. After the announcement, and everything they did not say, I wouldn't be surprised if the Evergreen line is the last one built under Translink.

The mayors do not know how to negotiate and help each other, and there isn't enough money available anywhere to give everyone everything they want immediately to cover up the problem. Our mayors have increasingly been fighting each other with their announcements and through the media. While I don't see the opportunity for any further escalation, I do not see a Premier or Prime Minister being remotely attracted towards trying to help them when they won't help each other.

Now the one other chance to bring in money from other levels of government is if the Mayors' Council finds success in generating overwhelming support from voters across the region. That is why this was put to the public instead of working over time in private until there was a deal finalized. That is why the headline was not the precise new tax or fee they need to contribute what they have promised if the provincial and federal governments agree to the proposal. I think they have failed already because it is neither a seductive vision to believe in, nor is it a modest expenditure achieving prudent goals efficiently.

The Premier and Prime Minister have their own priorities, including establishing a budget surplus to forget embarrassing deficits. They both can easily deflect demands for transportation investment because they are spending elsewhere with the George Massey bridge or gas tax fund, and so this specific proposal is not their responsibility or at least not at this time

There are always more ways to spend money, and if it is transportation in the province then I think a much more seductive idea is a highway from Pemberton or Squamish to Powell River, and onward to a fixed crossing to Vancouver Island at Campbell River. That is something a politician can sell in many ways, on many levels, and it would be all their own to attach their name.

Translink has a short history, with one grand bargain put together by Gordon Campbell. There were new highways, new bridges, new bus driver and maintenance jobs, new skytrain infrastructure. He is a slimeball, but he knew how to build a package that brought parties into a consensus when he wanted.

This cannot even be called a package, it just appears to confirm division by announcing an unsupported resolution to convert 2 bus routes in Surrey to at-grade LRT and 4 lane Patullo being the happiest way of saying the only agreement is for nothing to happen. Otherwise it was the bare minimum with Seabus for North Van, tweaking NightBus to chase demand slowly enough to not upset cab companies, and half of a line that has been dangled as a promise since before Translink existed.

400 more buses to go from 1830 to 2230, when only in the last decade did Translink buy way too many buses, hire too many drivers, train too many mechanics, all overseen by too many managers to run new routes where they couldn't give away free rides. Which they only cut some of when they were forced to ration operating spending. So they propose building half a subway so they don't free up all that equipment and staff running the busiest bus route in North America. That's the vision to back up continuous tolling?

It's a lot of spending, coupled with additional new revenue authority that does not eliminate absurdities like taxes on private parking spaces, and it achieves very little for transportation. There will be the few who directly benefit from that spending, but that doesn't win a referendum against 3% additional property tax for no general benefit.

There was no imagination for something like a 3rd crossing to the North Shore, a trenched freeway through downtown Vancouver, extending the Canada Line to the Tsawassen ferry terminal, a year round connection to SFU, or anything visionary for a plan covering decades. On the Mayors Council there is isolation, with a preference to extremism, with a minimal coalition empowered by neutral members whose idea it is to ignore Translink's own studies, instead of trying to bring everyone on board.

If Translink isn't based in consistency and primarily becomes a means of telling others what they can't do, it will exclude its own partners who give it any power. If Translink does not even target clearing its backlog, I foresee only public anger at any attempt to increase their funding.

If Translink breaks up, I don't know if there would be 2 offspring or just multilateral agreements by individual cities. I do feel the future will be with funding and operation done as in the USA or Asia. An independent authority with fixed public funding, ability to issue bonds, fewer hidden taxes and fees, integrated/negotiated planning and zoning with the cities, ability to acquire and develop real estate with better programs covering commercial leasing, advertising and other corporate partnerships.

We're a lot like Toronto right now, their amalgamation just rearranges the form of the same stalemate. (LRT's support is deeply tied to its greater labour intensity with more spending on construction, maintenance, and conductors than bus routes. Skytrain's operating cost competitiveness is all from having no driver, and lower maintenance. The bus fleet expansion in Campbell's grand bargain was never about ridership and not just about concurrent union contract negotiations. We'd be better off giving away Teslas directly to Surrey residents instead of spending the money through their city council) If they could exit their amalgamation as easily as breaking up, or drastically cutting, Translink they might have already done it. With Compass coming online, we might see precise cuts to operating expenditures with per-km pricing and flattening subsidies regionally -- minimal protest and easy to handle in front of the media.

There is plenty of opportunity for the cities in the region to work together, at least if you're willing to help address each others' planning and risks over decades. By the time the Mayors Council could get back together, I expect real estate and gasoline prices to be adjusting with a historically probable recession and then the real prospect of automated vehicles entering the market driving the agenda with a new set of priorities (be it for deliveries, shared vehicles that are better than a bus or a cab, better road utilization, less strenuous commutes...) Transit investment comes, and goes, in waves across time everywhere it has ever been in the world. It's not because people grow smart or stupid, the context changes. It was dumb luck Vancouver led the recent wave thanks to Expo, not unlike Los Angeles with freeways and suburbs.

Where Expo set the framework for Skytrain oriented developments in the last 30 years, I expect the new cities that grow into former ALR land from Richmond/Delta/Tsawassen/Ladner/White Rock to be the defining marker of their time.


EDIT
I wrote this before reading anyone else's responses, including
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Well... that was fast:

B.C. rejects Metro Vancouver mayors' plan to use carbon tax to help fund $7.5-billion transit boost
Pardon my understatement of assessed hostility and dysfunction. As a reminder, this gambit by the Mayors' Council is supposed to close the funding gap for Translink's current operating expenses that has been a public issue for a year or two now.
     
     
  #11908  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:05 AM
nname nname is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genauso View Post
As a reminder, this gambit by the Mayors' Council is supposed to close the funding gap for Translink's current operating expenses that has been a public issue for a year or two now.
There is no funding gap for the current operating expense. If the ridership stays flat and the operating hours remains the same, then there's not even a need for more more funding other than annual 2% fare adjustment for inflation. In fact, there is actually a slight operating surplus based on the current operation. The problem is - Surrey wants LRT, Vancouver wants subway, Pattullo needs replacing, the region wants more buses and B-Lines, new housing developments in the middle of nowhere need new service, and even the province wants more "green" and put more people on transit... Everyone wants more, but no one wants to pay for it - they expect TransLink magically come up with more money to pay for these new things. This is the issue here and this is what this package for - to pay for the new services, not to fix TransLink - they are just fine as-is.
     
     
  #11909  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:09 AM
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GlassCity GlassCity is offline
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I'm going through the Mayor's council vision right now in detail and damn it is really hard not to get giddy about this. I really do hope they can secure the funding.
     
     
  #11910  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
Everyone wants more, but no one wants to pay for it
The problem is that the Province wants the municipalities to take the blame use property tax. The municipalities want to use income tax by allocating the carbon tax to the region or by road pricing that the province is strongly against.
     
     
  #11911  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 2:24 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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I'd support a 0.5% increase in PST in Metro Van (or Translink's borders) to pay for this. Would that do it?

The provincial government's attitude here is embarrassing compared to Ontario. The Liberals (just voted in) are commencing with a $29B transit plan including $15B for the GTA over the next 10 years: http://globalnews.ca/news/1305133/how-th...an-to-pay-for-public-transit-in-toronto/

It's clear the GTA there can't help themselves (Rob Ford and his ilk), so the province needs to step in.

I daresay a Gordon Campbell-led BC Liberal party would be doing the same thing in BC today.
     
     
  #11912  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 3:44 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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The question I have with the LRT is how much grade separation does that include? It may be that the proposed plan has overpasses at major intersections, it could have sections in trenches, it could have elevated sections.

We could end up with something almost fully grade separated like Seattle's North Link or Calgary's West LRT. Alterntively, we could end up with a fancy, slow and useless streetcar like our friend Malcolm proposes. All we know is what the renders look like near Central.

So... go go Carbon Tax? I think that will probably work. It certainly fits the ideology well.
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  #11913  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
I'd support a 0.5% increase in PST in Metro Van (or Translink's borders) to pay for this. Would that do it?
That's a great plan for increasing cross border shopping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
The provincial government's attitude here is embarrassing compared to Ontario. The Liberals (just voted in) are commencing with a $29B transit plan including $15B for the GTA over the next 10 years: http://globalnews.ca/news/1305133/how-th...an-to-pay-for-public-transit-in-toronto/

It's clear the GTA there can't help themselves (Rob Ford and his ilk), so the province needs to step in.

I daresay a Gordon Campbell-led BC Liberal party would be doing the same thing in BC today.
Ontario is a fiscal basket case. Their deficit number are horrendous. They're throwing around money they don't have and with the collapse of their manufacturing will never have.
     
     
  #11914  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
That's a great plan for increasing cross border shopping.

Ontario is a fiscal basket case. Their deficit number are horrendous. They're throwing around money they don't have and with the collapse of their manufacturing will never have.
Cross border? For 0.5%? That's a daily fluctuation in the exchange rate.

Ontario's economy is weak, but if BC's is so much better, why can't we afford this?
     
     
  #11915  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:57 PM
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Here's a great opinion piece by Pete McMartin from the Vancouver Sun:

http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/colu...it+driving+this+train/9933807/story.html

The provincial government's knee-jerk response to this is really pissing me off.
     
     
  #11916  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 5:13 PM
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I would pay more in taxes to get this package of investments and improvements. Not everyone is anti-tax.
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  #11917  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:06 PM
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I have to say I like the plan. Its not perfect particularly the surrey lrt but Diana Watts wouldn't go for anything else and this would be dead on arrival without her support. It can survive Derek Corrigan being against it but not him and Diana Watts. Thats not to say this plan is going to be easy to pass but I think that it actually has a chance.
     
     
  #11918  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
Name me 5 denser cities that use LRT as the backbone of their rapid transit network without grade separated alternatives...successfully.

Anyways name me 5 cities, maybe I am just behind the times.
City Density
Surrey BC - 1,500/km2

Five cities whose backbone are surface LRTs with no grade separated alternatives

City Density
Jerusalem 6,400/km2
Tallinn 2,700/km2
Strasbourg 3,500/km2
Nottingham 4,073/km2
Sarajevo 5,630 /sq mi

Honorable mention even though this has grade separated alternative....

Budapest 3,314/km2

Quote:
The tram network serves as the backbone of the transit system, carrying almost 100 million more passengers annually than the Budapest Metro.
     
     
  #11919  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:24 PM
lightrail lightrail is offline
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Originally Posted by Genauso View Post

There was no imagination for something like a 3rd crossing to the North Shore, a trenched freeway through downtown Vancouver, extending the Canada Line to the Tsawassen ferry terminal, a year round connection to SFU, or anything visionary for a plan covering decades. On the Mayors Council there is isolation, with a preference to extremism, with a minimal coalition empowered by neutral members whose idea it is to ignore Translink's own studies, instead of trying to bring everyone on board.
I had to comment on this. I don't see how a 3rd crossing is imaginative. The region has been working towards reducing car dependency, not increasing it. A third crossing isn't needed. Same for a trenched freeway - where would you trench it? Downtown Vancouver is one of the densest places in North America. And again, it would do nothing but add more cars, divide the city physically. Density can only be supported with public transit - preferably rail based. Otherwise, you need too much space for parking and roads to handle the cars.

Extending Canada Line to Tsawwassen wouldn't make any sense either - to get there from it's current terminus in Richmond, it would be 25km mostly through protected agricultural land (20km) or low density suburban residential. And with ferries running every hour, the train would only be used once every hour, so the investment in infrastructure makes no sense. Translink runs an efficient bus link - the 620 - on paper it runs largely every hour to coincide with the ferry - but they can and do send extra buses at busy times. I've seen as many as five articulated buses all leaving the ferry around the same time.

Imaginative to me is the following:
1. building the broadway subway first at least to Arbutus. Further west I'm not convinced has the ridership, other than UBC at the end.
2. build skytrain in Surrey - I'm sorry but at grade LRT is not going to give you the ridership or development potential that SkyTrain can. Not to mention the higher operating costs of running LRT due to labour. LRT is really just a romantic dream that will not follow through in reality.
3. Build a new ferry terminal at Sea Island for Victoria, Gulf Island and Nanaimo - extend Canada Line to it and focus on moving people not cars. Don't ask how I'd get the Canada Line through the airport to the terminal
4. Lots more rapid bus route with dedicated lanes where possible.
     
     
  #11920  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2014, 8:06 PM
rsxstock rsxstock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
I had to comment on this. I don't see how a 3rd crossing is imaginative. The region has been working towards reducing car dependency, not increasing it. A third crossing isn't needed. Same for a trenched freeway - where would you trench it? Downtown Vancouver is one of the densest places in North America. And again, it would do nothing but add more cars, divide the city physically. Density can only be supported with public transit - preferably rail based. Otherwise, you need too much space for parking and roads to handle the cars.

Extending Canada Line to Tsawwassen wouldn't make any sense either - to get there from it's current terminus in Richmond, it would be 25km mostly through protected agricultural land (20km) or low density suburban residential. And with ferries running every hour, the train would only be used once every hour, so the investment in infrastructure makes no sense. Translink runs an efficient bus link - the 620 - on paper it runs largely every hour to coincide with the ferry - but they can and do send extra buses at busy times. I've seen as many as five articulated buses all leaving the ferry around the same time.

Imaginative to me is the following:
1. building the broadway subway first at least to Arbutus. Further west I'm not convinced has the ridership, other than UBC at the end.
2. build skytrain in Surrey - I'm sorry but at grade LRT is not going to give you the ridership or development potential that SkyTrain can. Not to mention the higher operating costs of running LRT due to labour. LRT is really just a romantic dream that will not follow through in reality.
3. Build a new ferry terminal at Sea Island for Victoria, Gulf Island and Nanaimo - extend Canada Line to it and focus on moving people not cars. Don't ask how I'd get the Canada Line through the airport to the terminal
4. Lots more rapid bus route with dedicated lanes where possible.
what's worse about LRT in surrey is that it would significantly reduce the chance of them getting skytrain in the near future, if at all. i can imagine them realizing after it is built how poorly it integrates with the existing network and having no chance to go back
     
     
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