YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Cage]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

One thing I noticed was WJ started a YYC-Nashville service, yet YVR-Nashville is over 35% larger from an O&D standpoint. Benefits to having an airline head office in your town I suppose.

YYC-BNA is being supported by a lot of outbound tourist traffic that is going from Alberta to Nashville to see the grand ole opry and other country music destinations. WestJet Vacations is making a bank on the run and it will likely go 3-5x per week next year.

With all the BNA euphoria, I will take a wait and see approach to determine if BNA is a long term n/s summer seasonal route. There is a chance for YYC-BNA to over-saturate the market once everyone had the fill of BNA. A good indication of long term success will be if I start hearing about repeat business.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

BOS is being operated daily summer seasonal.
I don't think Dash 8 -100s would be flying down to SMF.
AUS/SAT and any of the Ohio services wouldn't be viable.
MIA/FLL > BOS but you are showing fewer flights per week to MIA/FLL? These routes would be flown with similar equipment.

Is SMF too far for the Dash? I was going by ACs stated range, but I have no idea what the practical range of those things are.

Agreed on Ohio, just thought it was interesting.

I do think there's a market for West Texas service though. AC sends a daily E175 from Toronto to San Antonio with the exact same O&D as YVR has to Austin. Given the O&D growth between AUS-YVR the last 2 years of 9%+ each year it seems a market that could be ripe to exploit if AC want's to build it's YVR hub.

WRT MIA I was playing around with aircraft types so that MIA is a CS300 whereas BOS is an A319. I think the both could support daily service on either frame, so long as AC could find the metal that wasn't being deployed more profitably elsewhere.

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

Using population, and depreciating by distance from YVR (e.g. by 2:1) perhaps the largest unserved centre would be GEG Spokane.

GEG is closer than Cranbrook and has 3.3m PX/yr - that's roughly the same as YYJ + YLW together, in line with the combined size of those cities. Greater Spokane has a population of 650k. SEA is the only closer hub

Statscan data Johnny linked us to shows only 6990 px in 2016 for YVR-GEG, however that omits any Asia/Aust/Europe load that might be drawn our way. And other connecting GEG - W Canada traffic.

Anyone going beyond SEA from GEG has a 40 min turbo connector anyway, so why not AC Express via YVR? The GEG-SEA route has AS @ 14 x Q400 while DL has 8 x 70 seat ERJ/CRA-types each per day. Only 3% of that fills a DH3

How about GEG-YVR in time for the noon rush, then return to GEG for an afternoon YYC link (Europe and E Canada connections) then back for overnight in GEG? Perhaps 30-50/ day transferring onto longhauls, plus some new local business...

Also - more CDN traffic is likely to occur with Toronto Hydro 1's recent purchase of Avista - one of Spokane's largest employers

If you look at the numbers Spokane just isn't there. The O&D doesn't even support one frequency a day on ACs smallest aircraft. I don't know why there is so little demand, but the numbers don't lie.

Originally Posted by Cage

YYC-BNA is being supported by a lot of outbound tourist traffic that is going from Alberta to Nashville to see the grand ole opry and other country music destinations. WestJet Vacations is making a bank on the run and it will likely go 3-5x per week next year.

With all the BNA euphoria, I will take a wait and see approach to determine if BNA is a long term n/s summer seasonal route. There is a chance for YYC-BNA to over-saturate the market once everyone had the fill of BNA. A good indication of long term success will be if I start hearing about repeat business.

I'm not too surprised YYC-BNA is doing well, just pointing out what i found surprising, that YVR had a higher demand for BNA than YYC. Country music ain't exactly a big draw out here so I wonder what is pushing it.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Is SMF too far for the Dash? I was going by ACs stated range, but I have no idea what the practical range of those things are.

Agreed on Ohio, just thought it was interesting.

I do think there's a market for West Texas service though. AC sends a daily E175 from Toronto to San Antonio with the exact same O&D as YVR has to Austin. Given the O&D growth between AUS-YVR the last 2 years of 9%+ each year it seems a market that could be ripe to exploit if AC want's to build it's YVR hub.

WRT MIA I was playing around with aircraft types so that MIA is a CS300 whereas BOS is an A319. I think the both could support daily service on either frame, so long as AC could find the metal that wasn't being deployed more profitably elsewhere.

If you look at the numbers Spokane just isn't there. The O&D doesn't even support one frequency a day on ACs smallest aircraft. I don't know why there is so little demand, but the numbers don't lie.

I'm not too surprised YYC-BNA is doing well, just pointing out what i found surprising, that YVR had a higher demand for BNA than YYC. Country music ain't exactly a big draw out here so I wonder what is pushing it.

Air BC used to serve Spokane out of YVR but AC cancelled the service sometime in the early 2000s I believe, along with Sacramento.

AC also used to fly YVR-MIA with an A319 which was close to 6 hours and often weight restricted.

[trofirhen]

I wonder if there is enough traffic to warrant AC restarting YVR-SMF (Sacramento).
Probably not, especially as it was tried, but terminated, and with SJC (San Jose) up and running.
For anyone interested, AA used to go YVR - SJC twice a day, years back, en route to LAX & Burbank.
Also, Frontier Airlines used to serve GEG (Spokane) on a flight to Denver that was a 'milk run' than terminated in Shreveport, Louisiana, of all places!

[Gordon]

Does ay one have any inf as to how th new AC YVR DEN & yvr DFW services are doing?

[SpongeG]

sounds like the airport closures in hong kong and china might be felt at yvr. Many flights cancelled in asia.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia...ights-cancelled--trading-delayed-9147168

[Klazu]

This year I have had the pleasure of contributing some unusual travel itenaries to YVR's stats. First there was the YVR-MSP-KEF-JAV-SFJ-GOH-KEF-MSP-YVR trip to Iceland and Greenland this past June which was incredible.



In December I am taking another holiday which was really putting UA's multi-city booking feature to a test with 16 flights criss-crossing Western Pacific tropical islands. Yep, it's one single booking itenary.

YVR-SFO-HNL-GUM-ROP-SPN-GUM-ROR-GUM-TKK-PNI-KSA-KWA-MAJ-HNL-SFO-YVR

I will be traveling onboard United's famous "Island Hopper" service from Palau through Guam (with a detour in Saipan), Federal States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands and finally Honolulu. There will be lots of short layovers on small islands and atolls that we will also spend some time on.

Should be interesting and the snorkeling looks nothing short of amazing.

Anyone else done The Hopper?

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I will be traveling onboard United's famous "Island Hopper" service from Palau through Guam (with a detour in Saipan), Federal States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands and finally Honolulu. There will be lots of short layovers on small islands and atolls that we will also spend some time on.

Should be interesting and the snorkeling looks nothing short of amazing.

Anyone else done The Hopper?
[/IMG]

Yes, I did it a couple of times before the Continental - United merger when I was doing business with IT&E in Guam.

I remember one time on the Guam-Saipan leg, we could hear air whistling loudly from one of the forward doors as we were landing. Not helped when the cabin crew went to look at the door and talked about a problem with the door not being shut properly (although they didn't look overly perturbed).

I'm sure you'll be fine!

[Klazu]

Yikes. What was the plane Continental was operating on the route? Nowadays United operates a new 737-800 on the long Island Hopper route and ATR42 to Saipan. The latter is actually a very short leg.

[SFUVancouver]

That sounds like an amazing set of trips, Klazu! I would love to see some of your Iceland photography.

[Hot Rod]

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/brea...the-hub-AME&utm_content=the-hub-20170818

Top North American airline routes

Vancouver International (YVR) - Toronto Lester B Pearson (YYZ) had the most available capacity in July 2017, up 8.6 percent on June, following increases by Air Canada, Sunwing Airlines and Westjet.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

That sounds like an amazing set of trips, Klazu! I would love to see some of your Iceland photography.

Thanks, but oh boy, they are "coming" (along with so many other travel photos)...

If you are curious, one round trip cost $3700 CAD. Not that bad when you remember that it is still 16 flights during peak travel season.

I love exploring airline route maps on their inflight magazines and I was always curious about this very unique route found on United's map. Now I get to fly the whole stretch, excluding only Yap island, which is only served on certain days of the week. Oh well, can't get it all.



Of course the point of the trip is not (just) the flying the route and we will also be spending 2-4 days each in Koror, Guam, Saipan, Pohnpei and Majuro. World War II history, pristine white sand beaches and colorful coral reefs are the real reason for going.

• Video Link

[Alpine]

Following YVR's service expansion can be a frustrating experience at times.

• Still no year-round service to Boston, Atlanta or Dulles
  
• Still no daily KLM or AF service (limited to 5x weekly, even in peak season; plus KLM sends its dinosaur A330-300s in the off season)
  
• Still no year-round AC flight to FRA
  
• Still no year-round flight to India
  
• Still no flights to Singapore, or Bangkok, or KL, or Dubai, or Doha, or Abu Dhabi, or Istanbul
  
• Virgin Atlantic still can't get bilateral rights to fly YVR-LHR
  

I can understand some of the barriers, like AC's aircraft shortage owing to their rolling out so many routes so quickly; as well as the current political instability in Qatar and Turkey, etc. Furthermore, there have been some pleasant surprises as of late: like AC expanding YVR-DEN, YVR-PHX and YVR-DFW to year-round; triple-daily YVR-SJC flights (alas, on Jazz--if it was a mainline flight, I'd be over the moon); plus expanding the seasonal YVR-DEL route to 5x weekly (if only for part of the season). All the same, I'm getting a tad impatient. I'd rather see a daily year-round YVR-DXB (AC and EK could split service just like AC56/EK242, with each carrier having 3x weekly departures), or YVR-SIN service than a gazillion new routes to PR China. If you're flying to BOM, ISB, MLE, CMB, ALG, it's still cheaper to drive/train to Seattle and fly EK, than it is to fly out of YVR through one of the European hubs. Cheaper by several hundred dollars, as a matter of fact.

By the way, AC and Transport Canada (not to mention the US3!) complain about the state subsidies that the ME3 carriers get, but don't seem to mind state-subsidized Chinese airlines starting services from Hangzhou/Nanjing/Kunming/Shenyang/Zhengzhou/etc. to YVR. What hypocrisy!

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Alpine

By the way, AC and Transport Canada (not to mention the US3!) complain about the state subsidies that the ME3 carriers get, but don't seem to mind state-subsidized Chinese airlines starting services from Hangzhou/Nanjing/Kunming/Shenyang/Zhengzhou/etc. to YVR. What hypocrisy!

maybe someone with more inside knowledge may comment further, but china does have a lot of O+D traffic with YVR, versus much less with the ME3 that really will rely on a lot of transfer traffic elsewhere. I suspect that depression of europe pax numbers last winter is due to VFR traffic going to chinese carriers, but a lot of people still want go to china from YVR.

-------

Anywhoo, lots at play for YVR in the near future. I`m looking at thai airways`s much telegraphed return to north american markets, the new intl MLL at YVR, the new skyteam lounge, deliveries of AC's final dreamliners and further maturation of AC`s routes. Of course, construction finally to begin on YVR's expansion plans as well.

in the mid-term future, AC`s C-series deliveries will open up new markets from YVR as with WS`s dreamliners and ULCC changing things up.

Things I`m hoping for:

• transborder new routes to IAD and SLC
• further maturation of these new routes. AC`s DEL, MEL, BOS and FRA to be made year round?
• AC's investors day route somewhere to SE asia/SIN?

[Canadian74]

Originally Posted by Alpine

Following YVR's service expansion can be a frustrating experience at times.

• Still no year-round service to Boston, Atlanta or Dulles
  
• Still no daily KLM or AF service (limited to 5x weekly, even in peak season; plus KLM sends its dinosaur A330-300s in the off season)
  
• Still no year-round AC flight to FRA
  
• Still no year-round flight to India
  
• Still no flights to Singapore, or Bangkok, or KL, or Dubai, or Doha, or Abu Dhabi, or Istanbul
  
• Virgin Atlantic still can't get bilateral rights to fly YVR-LHR
  

I can understand some of the barriers, like AC's aircraft shortage owing to their rolling out so many routes so quickly; as well as the current political instability in Qatar and Turkey, etc. Furthermore, there have been some pleasant surprises as of late: like AC expanding YVR-DEN, YVR-PHX and YVR-DFW to year-round; triple-daily YVR-SJC flights (alas, on Jazz--if it was a mainline flight, I'd be over the moon); plus expanding the seasonal YVR-DEL route to 5x weekly (if only for part of the season). All the same, I'm getting a tad impatient. I'd rather see a daily year-round YVR-DXB (AC and EK could split service just like AC56/EK242, with each carrier having 3x weekly departures), or YVR-SIN service than a gazillion new routes to PR China. If you're flying to BOM, ISB, MLE, CMB, ALG, it's still cheaper to drive/train to Seattle and fly EK, than it is to fly out of YVR through one of the European hubs. Cheaper by several hundred dollars, as a matter of fact.

By the way, AC and Transport Canada (not to mention the US3!) complain about the state subsidies that the ME3 carriers get, but don't seem to mind state-subsidized Chinese airlines starting services from Hangzhou/Nanjing/Kunming/Shenyang/Zhengzhou/etc. to YVR. What hypocrisy!

Virgin can't get bilateral rights??? What? They operated the route not too long ago and quit.

Emirates can't start YVR, they are maxed out with their frequencies. I believe Air Canada as well is maxed out, each airline can only operate 3 weekly. And you make it sound like they are partners, they are not. Even if the bilateral was expanded, you will see additional YYZ flights before YVR.

I can see DEL and FRA being upgraded to year round in the future

[nname]

Originally Posted by Alpine

Virgin Atlantic still can't get bilateral rights to fly YVR-LHR

That's more to do with DL wanting to funnel SkyTeam traffic to their hub at SEA rather than diverting them to YVR. I remember them starting LHR-SEA not long after cancelling LHR-YVR.

Originally Posted by Alpine

By the way, AC and Transport Canada (not to mention the US3!) complain about the state subsidies that the ME3 carriers get, but don't seem to mind state-subsidized Chinese airlines starting services from Hangzhou/Nanjing/Kunming/Shenyang/Zhengzhou/etc. to YVR. What hypocrisy!

The limit is not set by subsidy, but by the O&D demand between the two countries. Don't you think Canada-China have at least 12x as much demand as Canada-UAE? If there is that much O&D demand, I'm sure EK won't have issue to have the right to run multiple dailies to every single Canadian airport even if every route is 100% subsidized.

There are just waaaayyy more O&D demand for route like Zhengzhou-YVR than YVR-Dubai...

[CareerShow]

Originally Posted by Alpine

Following YVR's service expansion can be a frustrating experience at times.

• Still no year-round service to Boston, Atlanta or Dulles
  
• Still no daily KLM or AF service (limited to 5x weekly, even in peak season; plus KLM sends its dinosaur A330-300s in the off season)
  
• Still no year-round AC flight to FRA
  
• Still no year-round flight to India
  
• Still no flights to Singapore, or Bangkok, or KL, or Dubai, or Doha, or Abu Dhabi, or Istanbul
  
• Virgin Atlantic still can't get bilateral rights to fly YVR-LHR
  

I can understand some of the barriers, like AC's aircraft shortage owing to their rolling out so many routes so quickly; as well as the current political instability in Qatar and Turkey, etc. Furthermore, there have been some pleasant surprises as of late: like AC expanding YVR-DEN, YVR-PHX and YVR-DFW to year-round; triple-daily YVR-SJC flights (alas, on Jazz--if it was a mainline flight, I'd be over the moon); plus expanding the seasonal YVR-DEL route to 5x weekly (if only for part of the season). All the same, I'm getting a tad impatient. I'd rather see a daily year-round YVR-DXB (AC and EK could split service just like AC56/EK242, with each carrier having 3x weekly departures), or YVR-SIN service than a gazillion new routes to PR China. If you're flying to BOM, ISB, MLE, CMB, ALG, it's still cheaper to drive/train to Seattle and fly EK, than it is to fly out of YVR through one of the European hubs. Cheaper by several hundred dollars, as a matter of fact.

By the way, AC and Transport Canada (not to mention the US3!) complain about the state subsidies that the ME3 carriers get, but don't seem to mind state-subsidized Chinese airlines starting services from Hangzhou/Nanjing/Kunming/Shenyang/Zhengzhou/etc. to YVR. What hypocrisy!

Klm is year round in the summer....

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

That's more to do with DL wanting to funnel SkyTeam traffic to their hub at SEA rather than diverting them to YVR. I remember them starting LHR-SEA not long after cancelling LHR-YVR.

And the day after Delta cancelled SEA-LHR.

Originally Posted by CareerShow

Klm is year round in the summer....

I know you meant daily in the summer.

AF/KLM western Canada ops gets reduced in the winter.
YVR down to 7pw (4 KL & 3 AF), YYC down to 5pw KL and YEG down to 2pw KL.

[Canadian74]

Originally Posted by nname

The limit is not set by subsidy, but by the O&D demand between the two countries. Don't you think Canada-China have at least 12x as much demand as Canada-UAE? If there is that much O&D demand, I'm sure EK won't have issue to have the right to run multiple dailies to every single Canadian airport even if every route is 100% subsidized.

There are just waaaayyy more O&D demand for route like Zhengzhou-YVR than YVR-Dubai...

The limit is not set by just o/d. Don't be so naive. There are other countries which have much more liberal air bilaterals with canada, but there is little or no service between the countries

[nname]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

The limit is not set by just o/d. Don't be so naive. There are other countries which have much more liberal air bilaterals with canada, but there is little or no service between the countries

And I was just comparing the ones with frequency restriction, especially China vs UAE as it was previously mentioned.

If the demand is there, then more frequency was made available through negotiation (which was seen for India, Australia, Thailand, etc). If the current allowance is more than enough to serve the demand, then getting extra frequency would be harder (China, UAE, Turkey, etc).