ATLANTA | Development Thread V - Page 593

RocketSurgeon · #**11841** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 5:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertarian

You guys sound like Luddites. After many years nobody else is showing up to develop these pieces to your standards. Atlanta has lots of unused space in which to try different things. If you prefer the legacy pedestrian experience there's Midtown and Downtown.

I'm not sure what someone who considers urbanity a "legacy" concept is doing on a skyscraper forum, but I digress...

That basically is Midtown. If you walked along 17th from Peachtree, it'd be the first auto-centric development you'd come across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scania

Agreed!!! What in the world is so urban about most if not all of Northside Dr???

Everything planned or built in the last several years. Have you not seen the area around White Provisions lately?

briantech · #**11842** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 5:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I'm not sure what someone who considers urbanity a "legacy" concept is doing on a skyscraper forum, but I digress...

That basically is Midtown. If you walked along 17th from Peachtree, it'd be the first auto-centric development you'd come across.

Everything planned or built in the last five years or so. Have you not seen the area around White Provisions lately?

Or the whole marietta corridor ...

scania · #**11843** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 7:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I'm not sure what someone who considers urbanity a "legacy" concept is doing on a skyscraper forum, but I digress...

That basically is Midtown. If you walked along 17th from Peachtree, it'd be the first auto-centric development you'd come across.

Everything planned or built in the last several years. Have you not seen the area around White Provisions lately?

Hillarious...let's see, I'm at West Egg, I see myself waking to...nowhere!

BlueSangha · #**11844** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 7:23 PM**

Dewberry

RocketSurgeon · #**11845** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 7:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scania

Hillarious...

Really? Which of the recent and planned developments in that area are auto-centric, then? The Fuqua one is the only one I can think of.

scania · #**11846** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 8:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

Really? Which of the recent and planned developments in that area are auto-centric, then? The Fuqua one is the only one I can think of.

White Provision is only one development. But IMO, as cool as it is to have, I wouldn't really call it urban. It's no more urban than Avalon in Alpharetta.

clexmond · #**11847** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 8:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scania

White Provision is only one development. But IMO, as cool as it is to have, I wouldn't really call it urban. It's no more urban than Avalon in Alpharetta.

White Provisions sits on 4.5 acres and includes 100 homes, 43k sq. ft. of office and 98k sq. ft. of retail. So, 22.2 units / acre, 9,555 sq. ft. office / acre, and 21,777 sq. ft. retail / acre.

Meanwhile Phase 1 of Avalon sits on 86 acres and includes 350 homes 500k sq. ft. of retail, and 105k sq. ft. of office. So, 4.1 units / acre, 1,220 sq. ft. office / acre, 5,813 sq. ft. retail / acre.

White Provisions is far more urban than Avalon, numbers don't lie.

atlantaguy · #**11848** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 8:52 PM**

Fuqua's developments are just poisonous to the urban fabric (with the exception of Morningside), and he needs to be stopped. He lies, fights the neighborhoods repeatedly and has proven he has no desire to accommodate residents wishes or change his development model.

Some people just don't 'get it,' and sadly never will.

My biggest nightmare is that he'll win the bids for the Civic Center and Underground.

cabasse · #**11849** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 9:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scania

Hillarious...let's see, I'm at West Egg, I see myself waking to...nowhere!

what's hilarious is the point that you are trying to argue here.

scania · #**11850** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 10:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabasse

what's hilarious is the point that you are trying to argue here.

No. We all have different opinions.

scania · #**11851** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 10:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by clexmond

White Provisions sits on 4.5 acres and includes 100 homes, 43k sq. ft. of office and 98k sq. ft. of retail. So, 22.2 units / acre, 9,555 sq. ft. office / acre, and 21,777 sq. ft. retail / acre.

Meanwhile Phase 1 of Avalon sits on 86 acres and includes 350 homes 500k sq. ft. of retail, and 105k sq. ft. of office. So, 4.1 units / acre, 1,220 sq. ft. office / acre, 5,813 sq. ft. retail / acre.

White Provisions is far more urban than Avalon, numbers don't lie.

I wouldn't call that more urban. That's like saying AS is more/less urban than the other.

mayhem · #**11852** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 10:14 PM**

BREAKING: you're all wasting your time arguing over what's urban and not.

RocketSurgeon · #**11853** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 10:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scania

White Provision is only one development. But IMO, as cool as it is to have, I wouldn't really call it urban. It's no more urban than Avalon in Alpharetta.

There's a lot more than one development around there, mate. Elan Westside, Walton Westside, Aspire Waterworks, Steelworks, the condos/retail on Northside at 11th, Howell Mill and 11th, and on and on. Even the Buddhist community center on the little awkward lot across from the Fuqua proposal addresses the street and hides its parking behind.

I think it's reasonable to say it doesn't need to be high density or have world class architecture, but how can you look at a new development that's in an increasingly walkable area right in the urban core--literally steps away from several blocks of highrises that are only going to get denser over time--and say it's fine if it doesn't address the street at all, and that it's totally focused on cars? We obviously have very different visions for the future of this city (and also the definition of "urban," but I'm sure not getting into that row).

A-town · #**11854** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 10:54 PM**

The attitude here regarding this Fuqua development seems to be echoed on the Atlanta Waterworks Park Facebook fan page.

https://www.facebook.com/AtlantaWaterworksPark

ATLcubs · #**11855** Posted **Oct 19, 2014, 11:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayhem

BREAKING: you're all wasting your time arguing over what's urban and not.

Yes, and whether you like it or not, it's Fuqua's lot, and whatever he does, he does.

RocketSurgeon · #**11856** Posted **Oct 20, 2014, 12:56 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLcubs

Yes, and whether you like it or not, it's Fuqua's lot, and whatever he does, he does.

Thanks to zoning that's not actually true. Urban planning is actually a thing and it's how successful cities are born. Unfortunately, although the lot sits within the bounds of the Midtown Alliance, it's just outside the jurisdiction of the DRC. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before stricter guidelines are established for that area, though, and a bad development like Fuqua's will probably accelerate the process.

forj · #**11857** Posted **Oct 20, 2014, 2:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

Thanks to zoning that's not actually true. Urban planning is actually a thing and it's how successful cities are born. Unfortunately, although the lot sits within the bounds of the Midtown Alliance, it's just outside the jurisdiction of the DRC. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before stricter guidelines are established for that area, though, and a bad development like Fuqua's will probably accelerate the process.

BINGO! this is why Fuqua will be able to do what he wants here. The Loring heights neighborhood committee might pitch a fit over this, or they might not ( judging by the gerneral consensus i doubt they will approve ). But from what i have seen in Atlanta, only the DRC has teeth. we all know this wouldnt fly if it was net to Piedmont park or anywhere in Midtown proper. the site plan needs to be tweaked to better fit the neighborhood and the lot. It wouldnt take much to make it better.. in fact i might try my hand at drawing up a could alternative plans just for fun to show you how easy it is to make this a more walkable, more urban, more exciting development while still maintaining the general ingredients of this initial site plan. It's good to see the lively debate here.. though i think we should move on or at least keep it more civil. i dont like that this is taking over this thread. Lets hope this turns out for the best in the long run.

joecool · #**11858** Posted **Oct 20, 2014, 1:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

Thanks to zoning that's not actually true. Urban planning is actually a thing and it's how successful cities are born. Unfortunately, although the lot sits within the bounds of the Midtown Alliance, it's just outside the jurisdiction of the DRC. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before stricter guidelines are established for that area, though, and a bad development like Fuqua's will probably accelerate the process.

Exactly. I'm sure some changes will be made to that rendering. Lets hope so...

So... It's Monday. What's new?

jpdivola · #**11859** Posted **Oct 20, 2014, 2:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dettmann1

Some of you guys live in a fantasy land where everything should be dense and should be pedestrian oriented. While I love development like that and love the changes that have happened to Atlanta over the past 10 years (Moved here in 2003), you have to realize that developments have to make economic sense as well since someone has to put up the money and has to make a profit. Cities like DC, NYC, SF, LA, Chicago all have different urban development because Developers have to pay such a high price for land, they had to cram every single SF of development they can out of it to earn a profit. In Atlanta, they don't have to do that, and can't really do that because who is going to underwrite a dense commercial corner right there? If I was a finance guy, I sure as heck wouldn't. So can you guys take a second and realize not every single development in this City is going to be a Five story apartment building built to the lot line or a 20-30 tall building. There are places in this city that warrant that, however this site is not one of them. And Please do not point to Atlantic Station and hold that up as some sort of amazing development. That thing took ten years to come to fruition plus the Governor's help and one of the loosest underwriting markets we have ever seen.

Perhaps cities like Seattle, Denver and Minneapolis would be good peer cities for Atlanta to benchmark to? They aren't quite as structurally dense (and expensive) as the NYC, Bos, SF, Chicago's of the world. But, they appear to be doing a lot right when it comes to urban infill development.

johnandahalf · #**11860** Posted **Oct 20, 2014, 2:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdivola

Perhaps cities like Seattle, Denver and Minneapolis would be good peer cities for Atlanta to benchmark to? They aren't quite as structurally dense (and expensive) as the NYC, Bos, SF, Chicago's of the world. But, they appear to be doing a lot right when it comes to urban infill development.

Compare to Denver...let's see: When I moved away from Denver in 1990, the Denver Symphony was going bankrupt while the city decided to build a stadium they didn't need (next to their existing stadium) for a team they didn't have. In 2014, the Atlanta Symphony has been locked out of the Woodruff Arts Center by the WAC (mis)management while the city builds a new stadium (next to our existing stadium). Hmmmmm.