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  #11801  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 6:36 PM
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SkahHigh SkahHigh is offline
More transit please
 
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The City of Montreal has committed $40 million to utility relocation for the 5.8km Blue Line extension to Anjou. Work is to start in the winter of 2021.
     
     
  #11802  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkahHigh View Post
The City of Montreal has committed $40 million to utility relocation for the 5.8km Blue Line extension to Anjou. Work is to start in the winter of 2021.
Work on the utility relocation or the Blue Line extension?
     
     
  #11803  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 10:41 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Work on the utility relocation or the Blue Line extension?
Utility relocation, bike lanes and road improvements.
     
     
  #11804  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 12:04 AM
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Go Transit: Toronto - Niagara Falls

Love trains and trams and all that, but if it takes 2.5 hours to go from Union to Niagara Falls, which is clearly inferior to driving a personal vehicle or taking the bus, then why in God's name are we doing it?
     
     
  #11805  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 3:17 AM
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More transit please
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Work on the utility relocation or the Blue Line extension?
Sorry, work on the extension is to start in winter 2021. Utility relocation starts this summer
     
     
  #11806  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 3:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Go Transit: Toronto - Niagara Falls

Love trains and trams and all that, but if it takes 2.5 hours to go from Union to Niagara Falls, which is clearly inferior to driving a personal vehicle or taking the bus, then why in God's name are we doing it?
In PM rush hour, driving from Downtown TO to Niagara Falls takes much longer than that.

Tbh Go Train between the 2 places is really inefficient though. Why not start a Go Plane service between Niagara Falls Airport* and Billy Bishop?

* Build one, that is.
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  #11807  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 4:45 AM
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You can take the *same train* out of union that goes to Niagara Falls in the evening and catch a bus connection in Burlington that gets you to Niagara Falls over half an hour faster.
     
     
  #11808  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
You can take the *same train* out of union that goes to Niagara Falls in the evening and catch a bus connection in Burlington that gets you to Niagara Falls over half an hour faster.
Is traffic on QEW that good by then?
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  #11809  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 1:36 PM
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QEW traffic from say Stoney Creek/Grismby to Toronto is terrible during morning or afternoon commute. However, Stoney Creek/Grismby to Niagara Falls it isn't too bad if there's no construction or closed lanes.

That's why I say it's probably better to drive to West Harbour GO Station, park for free, and catch the GO Train to Union.
     
     
  #11810  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkahHigh View Post
Sorry, work on the extension is to start in winter 2021. Utility relocation starts this summer
That makes more sense. Thank you!
     
     
  #11811  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Go Transit: Toronto - Niagara Falls

Love trains and trams and all that, but if it takes 2.5 hours to go from Union to Niagara Falls, which is clearly inferior to driving a personal vehicle or taking the bus, then why in God's name are we doing it?
Doug Ford.

In fairness, both the Liberals and NDP promised regular service to Niagara as well. It's something that politicians in that region have been demanding for ages.

This way, though, if and when it inevitably fails due to lack of use, we can at least demonstrate that it's a failure, withdraw the service, and move on.
     
     
  #11812  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 11:18 PM
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Any projected ridership figures?
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  #11813  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 11:28 PM
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Preliminary reports say maybe a couple dozen people.
     
     
  #11814  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
In PM rush hour, driving from Downtown TO to Niagara Falls takes much longer than that.

Tbh Go Train between the 2 places is really inefficient though. Why not start a Go Plane service between Niagara Falls Airport* and Billy Bishop?

* Build one, that is.
Okay - I've never had to do it, so I don't know people's pain.

A lot things seem great on paper, but it's really tough getting people to leave their cars at home. I've tried ie drive to the train station, hop on a train, then a subway, walk four blocks, etc. It sucks b@lls...

Didn't they try ferry service from St Catharines to Toronto a few years back?
     
     
  #11815  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Okay - I've never had to do it, so I don't know people's pain.

A lot things seem great on paper, but it's really tough getting people to leave their cars at home. I've tried ie drive to the train station, hop on a train, then a subway, walk four blocks, etc. It sucks b@lls...

Didn't they try ferry service from St Catharines to Toronto a few years back?
A ferry?! If it takes 1.75 hours to go from Bruce Peninsula to Manitoulin Island, one from St Catherine’s to Downtown TO would have taken an hour...
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  #11816  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Preliminary reports say maybe a couple dozen people.
And there's the rub.

There's so much focus on supply when touting new or upgraded transportation infrastructure and service. But there needs to be a demand to justify the supply, for that supply to make economic sense. We'll have to see if future demand warrants this level of service (and more) to Niagara but the prospects seem limited at best.
     
     
  #11817  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
And there's the rub.

There's so much focus on supply when touting new or upgraded transportation infrastructure and service. But there needs to be a demand to justify the supply, for that supply to make economic sense. We'll have to see if future demand warrants this level of service (and more) to Niagara but the prospects seem limited at best.
The demand is there, just look at the traffic that clogs up the QEW every day. Niagara Region has almost half a million people plus tens of millions of tourists every year, most of them travelling from Toronto. That's plenty of demand for a rail service. The problem is the bare minimum has been done get GO trains to the area, making them slow and infrequent. A lot of expensive work is needed to speed up the service but it would be worth it. If an hourly train took 90 minutes to make the trip the ridership would skyrocket. Think of it as an alternative to the mid-peninsula highway, which would cost several billion dollars. This is a great opportunity to make our transportation system a little less dominated by cars.
     
     
  #11818  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:48 AM
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Also it doesn’t help that the train leaves at 5:19 am. 5! Who’s gonna be able to wake up for that and sleep in the train...
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My Proposal of TCH Twinning in Northern Ontario
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  #11819  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 5:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
The demand is there, just look at the traffic that clogs up the QEW every day. Niagara Region has almost half a million people plus tens of millions of tourists every year, most of them travelling from Toronto. That's plenty of demand for a rail service. The problem is the bare minimum has been done get GO trains to the area, making them slow and infrequent. A lot of expensive work is needed to speed up the service but it would be worth it. If an hourly train took 90 minutes to make the trip the ridership would skyrocket. Think of it as an alternative to the mid-peninsula highway, which would cost several billion dollars. This is a great opportunity to make our transportation system a little less dominated by cars.
How many billions will it take to provide the service? It would not just be a major rail upgrade, but a fixed rail crossing over or under the Welland Canal too, to avoid major delays from ship traffic, especially with frequent service. The demand has to be there to justify that spend.

Estimating travel demand for a specific mode is not simple.

According to StatsCan, in 2017 there were nearly 8.7 million visits to the St. Catharines-Niagara CMA, 5.4 million of them same-day. The majority are likely Friday to Sunday, plus holidays. I'm not sure if GO has published ridership for their seasonal Niagara service but that may be a good starting point for looking at tourist trip demand by rail.

Weekday service would rely on commuters. From the 2016 Census data on commuting flows for CMAs and CAs, there were 11,145 commuters from St. Catharines-Niagara to the Hamilton CMA and 5,725 to the Toronto CMA, the vast majority by car. There would be auto users willing to convert if the time/cost makes sense and they can connect to their place of work at the destination end, and you'd also have to look at where those people are coming from and going to within the CMAs to see if the rail option is reasonable (a better picture of origin-destinations can be had from the more detailed table for Census Subdivisions that covers the smaller geographies but would take a while to compile numbers). Some may just end up driving to Hamilton or Burlington and taking the train from there. Some may not want to switch at all, until congestion gets bad enough on the Niagara section of the QEW (and even then, commuters can be stubborn). The bus to Burlington remains a viable option too, until congestion affects travel times in a big way, and some of those commuters take it and may continue to take it. The portion of those ~17,000 commuters who would take the train to Hamilton or from Niagara region to Toronto may not end up being very big.

The numbers GO was showing a few years ago at their public info centres for Niagara expansion were small, far less than a full trainload per day from what I recall. They'll likely go up as growth continues and traffic worsens (and there are travel demand models that forecast trips for projects like this, which draw on data like the Census and travel surveys) but how much?

I'm not against this service (it's worth a trial at least). I'm just not optimistic the cost of a higher level of service will be justified for a long time.

Last edited by ScreamingViking; Jan 11, 2019 at 6:24 AM.
     
     
  #11820  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 6:36 AM
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I think the train would be far more successful if it ran regular NF to Hamilton and then complete express from Hamilton to Union. It would cut down on the time for both NF and Hamilton commuters and hence be more enticing to both places which together have 1 million people.
     
     
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