WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Luisito

There is already a problem with addictions and homelessness that has hurt downtown. I don't think it's fair to ask people to come or invest in downtown but provide no reassurance for improved safety. Look at what has happened with the public library, look at our bus shelters, look at what happened with portage place itself. How has the RAAM worked out in point douglas? Is there something solid you can point to that having that centre there in PD has improved the area? Becuase that is what your telling us, that this wil actually improve the area around portage place. I m not against having something like this downtown somewhere. I am just not convinced that this centrally located piece of real estate is the best place for this.

Not sure what percentage of the homeless population is mentally ill or has hard drug problems, but my guess would be north of 80%. If we tackle these problems, there will be less homeless people.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

I feel like I really want it to create betterness on that strip and downtown as a whole but I personally feel very skeptical at this early stage, all joking aside and listening to all these discussions. Being a resident here all my life and seeing what happened when they tried to use this same idea to better Main St north of Portage and Selkirk Ave, I just don’t see it, but I want to be wrong because I love this town overall.

It takes time. 118 Ave NW in Edmonton was really bad 20 years ago. Things have actually improved since then, as the city invested in cleaning the area up. It's still a rough area, but much of the area is better than it was in 2003.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

It takes time. 118 Ave NW in Edmonton was really bad 20 years ago. Things have actually improved since then, as the city invested in cleaning the area up. It's still a rough area, but much of the area is better than it was in 2003.

Yet Edmonton had an increase of over 11% in crime last year, so they haven’t really cleaned a thing up, just displaced it to another area.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Not sure what percentage of the homeless population is mentally ill or has hard drug problems, but my guess would be north of 80%. If we tackle these problems, there will be less homeless people.

Link to Canadian report on addiction and homelessness. This was from 2018, however, so post-pandemic numbers might have changed.My guess is that addiction-based homelessness might have increased?

https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/alt...0210121-VF.pdf

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yet Edmonton had an increase of over 11% in crime last year, so they haven’t really cleaned a thing up, just displaced it to another area.

Virtually everywhere in North America is seeing climbing crime rates since about 2015/16. Unless the government overseeing a region invests heavily in social services to reduce crime, any improvement in an area will largely shuffle the "riff raff" to another area.

[Glenn99]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

It takes time. 118 Ave NW in Edmonton was really bad 20 years ago. Things have actually improved since then, as the city invested in cleaning the area up. It's still a rough area, but much of the area is better than it was in 2003.

I'm in Edmonton temporarily, staying near UofA. Lots of open drug use and homeless people around. I wouldn't call the neighborhood rough or rundown but there is a lot of homeless. Even, on the UofA hospital grounds.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Glenn99

I'm in Edmonton temporarily, staying near UofA. Lots of open drug use and homeless people around. I wouldn't call the neighborhood rough or rundown but there is a lot of homeless. Even, on the UofA hospital grounds.

Very interesting. I do recall from my U of A student days a long time ago there would be the occasional incident, I know the HUB Mall shopkeepers and security staff sometimes bemoaned the rough crowd that the LRT would bring in but it wasn't that bad... certainly no prominent drug use and homelessness. The university area was a lot quieter than the rougher parts of Edmonton north of downtown. Sounds like that has changed.

From what I have seen though, Edmonton has taken it on the chin pretty hard due to the pandemic. They are roughly in the same boat as us, although they were arguably starting from a better position pre-pandemic.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yet Edmonton had an increase of over 11% in crime last year, so they haven’t really cleaned a thing up, just displaced it to another area.

That's like every city in North America. Crime declined for 23 years, bottoming out in 2014, and has been increasing since, especially since COVID.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Not sure what percentage of the homeless population is mentally ill or has hard drug problems, but my guess would be north of 80%. If we tackle these problems, there will be less homeless people.

Sure but do we have to tackle these problems right on portage? And are there any examples of centres exactly like the ones proposed for the new building working in a similar location?80% is a whole lot of people, how ling will that take? Several generations?

[davequanbury]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Not sure what percentage of the homeless population is mentally ill or has hard drug problems, but my guess would be north of 80%. If we tackle these problems, there will be less homeless people.

here are some local data that were produced in 2022. What I find striking isn't so much the rate or drug use or mental illness, but rather the extent to which being a ward of CFS is a predictor for future experiences of homelessness.

https://endhomelessnesswinnipeg.ca/w...nal-Report.pdf

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder. There are a lot more people afflicted than most people think.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Yet Edmonton had an increase of over 11% in crime last year, so they haven’t really cleaned a thing up, just displaced it to another area.

You're trying to compare 2 things that are largely unrelated. It's not like 100% of Edmonton's crime came from homelessness in one particular area. There are a million different factors that affect crime rates and street crimes committed by homeless people is a tiny drop in the bucket. People tend to assume that's where all the crime comes from because it's highly visible but it's just not the case. The majority of violent crimes are domestics that happen in private residences, for example.

Talking about how to improve homelessness in a particular area is a very different conversation than talking about how to broadly reduce crime rates across an entire city.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

You're trying to compare 2 things that are largely unrelated. It's not like 100% of Edmonton's crime came from homelessness in one particular area. There are a million different factors that affect crime rates and street crimes committed by homeless people is a tiny drop in the bucket. People tend to assume that's where all the crime comes from because it's highly visible but it's just not the case. The majority of violent crimes are domestics that happen in private residences, for example.

Talking about how to improve homelessness in a particular area is a very different conversation than talking about how to broadly reduce crime rates across an entire city.

Here you go. An article that explains how the gentrification of the ice district has displaced indigenous and homeless people to other neighbourhoods bringing them down. It also talks about how edmontons Chinese community has been affected by the city concentrating all the shelters/ homeless services in their community, bringing with it more crime. So the ice district “clean up” is nothing more than sweeping dust under a rug.

https://edmontonsocialplanning.ca/20...ation-problem/

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It also talks about how edmontons Chinese community has been affected by the city concentrating all the shelters/ homeless services in their community, bringing with it more crime. So the ice district “clean up” is nothing more than sweeping dust under a rug.

l]

Same thing is happening here. By the end of the decde historical chinatown will be no more. That part of the city has been pretty much designated an area for services for the homeless and drug addicts. The more services we provided for them, the more will come. Samething will happen on portage.

[zalf]

The incentives are totally different. The cluster of shelters in Point Douglas and Chinatown dump their negative externalities on the surrounding area. They provide the services they want to provide, and aren't concerned with the effects on the neighbourhood.

TNRE has its incentives aligned with the surrounding area, because they are the surrounding area. If in their heart of hearts they thought the Portage Place plan would endanger the arena or TNS, the proposal would never have seen the light of day.

[Hecate]

You know if they were gonna plunk this development on some empty parking lots downtown, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it’s right in the heart of, what should be, the most vibrant part of our downtown. Right in the middle of the sports, hospitality and entertainment district, that true north, if I’m not mistaken, advocated for. So pretty much this entire development goes against the areas intended purpose. It’s not the sports hospitality entertainment and addictions/social services district.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Hecate

You know if they were gonna plunk this development on some empty parking lots downtown, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it’s right in the heart of, what should be, the most vibrant part of our downtown. Right in the middle of the sports, hospitality and entertainment district, that true north, if I’m not mistaken, advocated for. So pretty much this entire development goes against the areas intended purpose. It’s not the sports hospitality entertainment and addictions/social services district.

Technically speaking Portage Place is part of the retail district, but your point stands just the same.

Speaking of that, the map probably needs some reworking as there is precious little retail left in the retail district.

[WinCitySparky]

Sports HOSPITALity Entertainment District

CMON IT’S RIGHT THERE lol

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Hecate

You know if they were gonna plunk this development on some empty parking lots downtown, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it’s right in the heart of, what should be, the most vibrant part of our downtown. Right in the middle of the sports, hospitality and entertainment district, that true north, if I’m not mistaken, advocated for. So pretty much this entire development goes against the areas intended purpose. It’s not the sports hospitality entertainment and addictions/social services district.

I don't really get this whole discussion TBH. It all seems to hinge on the idea that Portage is supposed to be the centerpiece of downtown for whatever reason... why? Portage hasn't been the retail/entertainment hub of downtown for like 40 years. It's a traffic artery.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

I don't really get this whole discussion TBH. It all seems to hinge on the idea that Portage is supposed to be the centerpiece of downtown for whatever reason... why? Portage hasn't been the retail/entertainment hub of downtown for like 40 years. It's a traffic artery.

Portage avenue is a grand boulevard. One that could, and should, easily rival its European counterparts. Champs Élysées anyone? Or is that too wide too? With developments like this one it will continue to be a thoroughfare rather than a destination. I don’t want that on this stretch of portage for the next 40 years.