O-Train Line 1/3 [ Stage 2 | East Extension | Blair to Trim] | U/C

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Now I know what I've been doing wrong. Maybe if I pushed for a cycle track in my neighbourhood, it would be plowed in winter. I can't get them to clear a pedestrian route

Exactly

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This speaks volumes on how the 'local bus' is now considered unreliable and that a 1 km walk is considered the better alternative. That is fine for some people, but the majority would not consider this acceptable level of service, and would choose a car if one is available.

Yeah, I could do the same here except that it is such an unpleasant walk, along a stroad, through massive parking lots and with missing sections of sidewalk, that I could not imagine doing this on a daily basis.

I can definitely understand your frustration about Ottawa transit users needing to rely on their own feet to get themselves 20 minutes to a stop instead of taking a local bus (the walk is actually 1.8km to Jeanne D'Arc for me).

A distinction that I want to make though and one that really informs my position on this whole thing, is that for me, there is a huge difference/premium associated with being able to walk and take transit at a station that is on the "spine" of our system and offers very high frequency, such that you never need to time things out to arrive at a particular moment.

Although I live in Orleans now, for many years I lived near Bayview and then later Blair. It was absolutely amazing for me to be able to go to one of those stations (10 minutes for Bayview and 20 for Blair) and then be able to take any bus that came, or the Trillium Line to Carleton where I was going to university while near Bayview. Those Bayview days were especially good, because I didn't just have one or two rapid transit bus routes, I had EVERY route that used that portion of the Transitway, meaning that if I was going anywhere between Lincoln Fields and Hurdman (often places like downtown or Westboro), I could get on any of maybe 20 bus routes (more during rush hour), including all the routes criss crossing the city to serve the fringes of Barrhaven, Kanata and Orleans.

Only needing to wait 2-3 minutes for a bus and only needing to take one instead of 2 or 3 really stands out for me as a fond memory, and so that is a major reason why even though I would prefer a 12 minute walk from my home to Convent Glen, I can easily survive a 20 minute walk to Jeanne D'Arc to take the high frequency train anywhere (eventually) Stage 2 would bring me. It made it possible for me to have no car until my early 30s when I got married and started a family. That proximity is also something that discourages me from moving to a larger home in parts of Orleans, Kanata or Barrhaven (even inside the Greenbelt) too far to walk to a train station, as I really don't want to lose a walkable (for me) distance to a train that makes public transit a viable option to compete with a car and makes me feel connected to the rest of my city (a 40 minute walk/train trip to downtown is much more competitive to me with a 20 minute drive as compared to a 1 hour 15 minute itinerary that includes a short walk, unreliable local bus and train trip)!

[J.OT13]

Video presented at FEDCO the other day. Not as great as usual, where they fly drones over the entire lines.

• Video Link

[OTSkyline]

I think one of the major issues today is that the existing line 1 and 2 are very short and don't service many people directly - and as mentioned, the connecting feeder bus network is often unreliable or infrequent.

I believe, and hope, that once the east, west and south extensions open that this might change quite a bit. I, for one, is in that bucket. I currently live in teh City's west end and even though there are a few buses that I could catch nearby (a mere 200m away), I never take transit today as it doesn't service me well. Once the west extension opens though, I do plan on doing the 1.1km walk quite frequently to catch the LRT to go to Westboro, downtown, Bayshore, etc..

I know the city's original stats on "XX% of the population will live within 5km of the LRT!" was quite a big stretch (let's face it, majority of people won't walk, bike or bus 5km just to hop on the LRT), but I'd be interested to see what the actual population residing within let's say 1 or 2 km, of the existing LRT vs. the expanded LRT would be. I bet that will make a pretty big difference in getting cars off the road and more people using transit regularly.

Let's also hope they iron out all the kinks of phase 1 though by then...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Our weather is vastly different both on the cold and hot side but especially cold.

I make the 5 minute bike instead of 20 minute walk to work sometimes but very often regret it. It's simply easier to walk all factors considered. Further distances are a different story.

In summer, mornings aren't bad. It's cooler so sweat isn't as much of a factor. Coming back home in the evening, I don't care as much if I break a sweat.

Still biking now when it's 0 degrees outside. Not sure I'll do it once the snow falls though, because the bicycle gutter on my route will no doubt no longer be accessible.

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Those Bayview days were especially good, because I didn't just have one or two rapid transit bus routes, I had EVERY route that used that portion of the Transitway, meaning that if I was going anywhere between Lincoln Fields and Hurdman (often places like downtown or Westboro), I could get on any of maybe 20 bus routes (more during rush hour), including all the routes criss crossing the city to serve the fringes of Barrhaven, Kanata and Orleans.

Only needing to wait 2-3 minutes for a bus and only needing to take one instead of 2 or 3 really stands out for me as a fond memory, and so that is a major reason why even though I would prefer a 12 minute walk from my home to Convent Glen, I can easily survive a 20 minute walk to Jeanne D'Arc to take the high frequency train anywhere (eventually) Stage 2 would bring me. It made it possible for me to have no car until my early 30s when I got married and started a family. That proximity is also something that discourages me from moving to a larger home in parts of Orleans, Kanata or Barrhaven (even inside the Greenbelt) too far to walk to a train station, as I really don't want to lose a walkable (for me) distance to a train that makes public transit a viable option to compete with a car and makes me feel connected to the rest of my city (a 40 minute walk/train trip to downtown is much more competitive to me with a 20 minute drive as compared to a 1 hour 15 minute itinerary that includes a short walk, unreliable local bus and train trip)!

I did that towards the end of my time in Orleans. I used to wait for the local bus, which showed up every time like clock work, but it was 15 to 30 minutes. My last month and a bit in Orleans, when I returned to the office after 2 years, I parked at Place d'Orleans PnR where any bus would take me to Blair. (and a good proportion of buses from Blair would take me back) Sometimes I could catch a bus as soon as I got out of the car (or train), other times, I still had to wait 10+ minutes, but it was still better than the local bus.

[J.OT13]

• Video Link

And from Rail Fans today:

Convent Glen and Place d'Orleans in the distance.



Convent Glen.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-convent-glen-station-november-13-2022

Place d'Orleans.











https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-place-dorleans-station-november-13-2022

[J.OT13]

More from Rail Fans. Progress at Blair (two weekends ago, they only connected one track, now they are working on the second).









https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-blair-station-november-13-2022

Jeanne d'Arc











https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-updates-2/snapshot-of-jeanne-darc-station-november-13-2022

Follow the links on both posts for more images.

[AuxTown]

It's well into this project and I never really thought about it before today but are people really going to ride the train to Orleans and get off at a station in the middle of a busy stroad? Is the plan to have new park and rides? Frequent local buses?

[rocketphish]

The triple tracks behind the Ogilvie Rd. Costco:



Nov 13, 2022
Photo by me

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

The triple tracks behind the Ogilvie Rd. Costco:



Nov 13, 2022
Photo by me

Why 3 tracks?

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

It's well into this project and I never really thought about it before today but are people really going to ride the train to Orleans and get off at a station in the middle of a busy stroad? Is the plan to have new park and rides? Frequent local buses?

Others can offer more precision/correct me, but here are my thoughts.

On whether people will take the train *to* Orleans and get off in the middle of a busy road, I think there is potential for that, particularly around Place D'Orleans and Trim. Place D'Orleans will have easy access to the mall, Shenkman Arts Centre, a cinema, restaurants, one or more hotels, etc. so there could be some attractions/amenities that entice people around Montreal or Blair stations to take the train East instead of West. Trim station has a part of the Cité francophone college plus access to the beach and Petrie Island, which could attract people that don't want to deal with the headache of parking. I don't think the highway or roads around the stations will discourage people too much, given the elevated walkways and other infrastructure to access the surrounding area. Another thing to note is that the three stations in the Western portion of the Stage 2 East expansion (Jeanne D'Arc, Convent Glen and Place D'Orleans) will all be quite close to Orleans' traditional main street, St. Joseph. That street already has a lot of restaurants, businesses and amenities (like Service Ontario) and with further transit oriented development is likely to see a transformation over the years to make it even more of a draw.

In terms of Park and Rides, I don't recall the extent to which they may be adding to the lots around existing stations, but I recall several stations already have decent sized lots (like Place D'Orleans and Trim). The previous capacity may actually go further with so many people working less than a full week in the office and commuting less frequently. The bus routes are likely to be reevaluted to feed passengers into the new train stations, with many in the far East going to Trim, a lot throughout a big chunk of Orleans going to Place D'Orleans and smaller numbers in the West going to Jeanne D'Arc (and possibly a handful to Convent Glen). I imagine that a few routes will be maintained in the South, along Innes and toward/in Blackburn Hamlet that will never join the Otrain in Orleans and rather take people over to Blair, similar to how things are right now.

There may be different takes than mine but overall that is how I see it!

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Others can offer more precision/correct me, but here are my thoughts.

On whether people will take the train *to* Orleans and get off in the middle of a busy road, I think there is potential for that, particularly around Place D'Orleans and Trim. Place D'Orleans will have easy access to the mall, Shenkman Arts Centre, a cinema, restaurants, one or more hotels, etc. so there could be some attractions/amenities that entice people around Montreal or Blair stations to take the train East instead of West. Trim station has a part of the Cité francophone college plus access to the beach and Petrie Island, which could attract people that don't want to deal with the headache of parking. I don't think the highway or roads around the stations will discourage people too much, given the elevated walkways and other infrastructure to access the surrounding area. Another thing to note is that the three stations in the Western portion of the Stage 2 East expansion (Jeanne D'Arc, Convent Glen and Place D'Orleans) will all be quite close to Orleans' traditional main street, St. Joseph. That street already has a lot of restaurants, businesses and amenities (like Service Ontario) and with further transit oriented development is likely to see a transformation over the years to make it even more of a draw.

In terms of Park and Rides, I don't recall the extent to which they may be adding to the lots around existing stations, but I recall several stations already have decent sized lots (like Place D'Orleans and Trim). The previous capacity may actually go further with so many people working less than a full week in the office and commuting less frequently. The bus routes are likely to be reevaluted to feed passengers into the new train stations, with many in the far East going to Trim, a lot throughout a big chunk of Orleans going to Place D'Orleans and smaller numbers in the West going to Jeanne D'Arc (and possibly a handful to Convent Glen). I imagine that a few routes will be maintained in the South, along Innes and toward/in Blackburn Hamlet that will never join the Otrain in Orleans and rather take people over to Blair, similar to how things are right now.

There may be different takes than mine but overall that is how I see it!

Thanks, good summary. As a west-ender, I'll admit I'm a bit blind to the transit needs of Orleans folks. I just see spots like Eagleson and Kanata Centrum as having MUCH higher ridership potential than these stations. But I guess there are similar suburban stations down the line that they are reaching with the East extension.

[OTSkyline]

I think Jeanne D'Arc and Covent Glen will rely heavily on walk/bike traffic from nearby neighbourhoods, Place D'Orleans will be more of an active hub (with the mall and retail and transfer bus station) while Trim will be most used for the Park N Ride.

Question though, are there any bus routes currently that cross the 417 on Jeanne D'Arc or Orleans Blvd where people could connect from bus to train instead of being shipped to Place D'Orleans (like the bus stops directly on top of the LRT station at Pimisi)?

[lrt's friend]

I think we better be thinking more if we believe that a 1 to 2 km walk to a rail station is going to generate significant new ridership. That is a 15 to 30 minute walk for someone who is reasonably fit. If you are a senior or even slightly disabled or accompanied by young children, forget it.

It is well known that use of public transit falls quickly with walks beyond 500 m.

If we want rail to be successful and public transit to rebound in general, we need an efficient feeder bus system that does not require waits of 30 or 60 minutes or meanders all over the place.

We just have to look at normal pedestrian behaviour. Put a block or two of nothing interesting, and that eliminates most pedestrians, even downtown. I don't think the average person will walk to St. Joseph Boulevard or Centrum Boulevard from a rail station. It is not a welcoming pedestrian environment. That is why a Centrum station is so important to make public facilities more accessible to public transit riders, but we know that will never happen, despite initial plans.

People are not going to give up their cars in suburban locations where traffic is generally not bad and parking abundant unless transit is extremely convenient. I am not convinced that what we are currently doing will accomplish this. It is still a commuter service into downtown and a few other locations, and even that is not done well if a 1 to 2 km walk is expected or a very inconvenient bus transfer.

I have a similar (unpleasant) walk to South Keys Station. Would I consider this on a regular or even an irregular basis? No. And this is from someone who enjoys walking and who walks daily during the winter months when I am not working my seasonal job.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

Thanks, good summary. As a west-ender, I'll admit I'm a bit blind to the transit needs of Orleans folks. I just see spots like Eagleson and Kanata Centrum as having MUCH higher ridership potential than these stations. But I guess there are similar suburban stations down the line that they are reaching with the East extension.

I think the main usage of the Confederation Line's Orleans extension will be people from Orleans and environs using it to travel to and from Orleans to central points in Ottawa.

Not so much for Orleans as a destination for people from other parts of Ottawa and the region.

Orleans has a significantly higher percentage of public servants and people who work downtown more generally, than Kanata does. Though of course WFH did change that reality considerably.

[orleans_man]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

It's well into this project and I never really thought about it before today but are people really going to ride the train to Orleans and get off at a station in the middle of a busy stroad? Is the plan to have new park and rides? Frequent local buses?

My take is:

1) This is primarily just replacing the existing transitway and the routes that used to utilize this corridor, with "Transportation-Oriented-Development" being a potential bonus. I don't think we'll see any significant changes in frequency (at least not for a while). I think local buses will simply continue to connect to the stations they connected to before (Place/Jean D'arc/Trim) and the Connexion/Express routes will just run "shorter" and his the O-Train stations instead of heading all the way to Blair, with a few changes here and there. This will generally improve the experience for some.

2) Volume/Revenue - On another note, I believe the Orleans portion of the line is going to be far less busy than what they had projected initially, at least until commuting levels return. I know my Connexion bus here in Orleans only runs 4 times during the morning rush hour (and not at capacity, maybe 40% or less), compared to 10 or 12 times during Pre-Pandemic times. Some quick napkin math tells me we have gone from 500-600 daily commuters on my route to about 100 or so. That's probably true through much of Orleans. That's a pretty big drop in volume/revenue, so until demand increases, I don't think we'll much change in connexion/local bus frequency. Hopefully, when the line is built and the O-Train's performance stabilizes volumes will pick-up again... and additional frequency can be justified.

3) Park-and-Rides - I think the only change I heard was maybe some additional capacity being added to the Trim park-and-ride.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by orleans_man

My take is:

1) This is primarily just replacing the existing transitway and the routes that used to utilize this corridor, with "Transportation-Oriented-Development" being a potential bonus. I don't think we'll see any significant changes in frequency (at least not for a while). I think local buses will simply continue to connect to the stations they connected to before (Place/Jean D'arc/Trim) and the Connexion/Express routes will just run "shorter" and his the O-Train stations instead of heading all the way to Blair, with a few changes here and there. This will generally improve the experience for some.

2) Volume/Revenue - On another note, I believe the Orleans portion of the line is going to be far less busy than what they had projected initially, at least until commuting levels return. I know my Connexion bus here in Orleans only runs 4 times during the morning rush hour (and not at capacity, maybe 40% or less), compared to 10 or 12 times during Pre-Pandemic times. Some quick napkin math tells me we have gone from 500-600 daily commuters on my route to about 100 or so. That's probably true through much of Orleans. That's a pretty big drop in volume/revenue, so until demand increases, I don't think we'll much change in connexion/local bus frequency. Hopefully, when the line is built and the O-Train's performance stabilizes volumes will pick-up again... and additional frequency can be justified.

3) Park-and-Rides - I think the only change I heard was maybe some additional capacity being added to the Trim park-and-ride.

I don't know how you regain ridership even with those who do not have a work from home option, with this kind of service level. This defeats the efficiency of the rail line by offering awful outbound transfer connections. I just rechecked my local bus and it is still operating at half the frequency as before the pandemic. This means that it is no longer a few minute wait for a bus transfer during peak hours. And this does not even consider previous service cuts that occurred before the pandemic.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why 3 tracks?

It's a pocket track to allow trains to turn back west after reaching Blair without impeding other incoming trains. It can also be used to store a disabled train, or just to hold an extra train in case they need more (like during an event for example).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I think Jeanne D'Arc and Covent Glen will rely heavily on walk/bike traffic from nearby neighbourhoods, Place D'Orleans will be more of an active hub (with the mall and retail and transfer bus station) while Trim will be most used for the Park N Ride.

Question though, are there any bus routes currently that cross the 417 on Jeanne D'Arc or Orleans Blvd where people could connect from bus to train instead of being shipped to Place D'Orleans (like the bus stops directly on top of the LRT station at Pimisi)?

Some do, but I think the plan is to have more routes cross those two overpasses to feed the two stations and take some pressure off Place d'Orleans.


https://www.octranspo.com/en/plan-your-trip/schedules-maps/network-map/

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think we better be thinking more if we believe that a 1 to 2 km walk to a rail station is going to generate significant new ridership. That is a 15 to 30 minute walk for someone who is reasonably fit. If you are a senior or even slightly disabled or accompanied by young children, forget it.

It is well known that use of public transit falls quickly with walks beyond 500 m.

If we want rail to be successful and public transit to rebound in general, we need an efficient feeder bus system that does not require waits of 30 or 60 minutes or meanders all over the place.

We just have to look at normal pedestrian behaviour. Put a block or two of nothing interesting, and that eliminates most pedestrians, even downtown. I don't think the average person will walk to St. Joseph Boulevard or Centrum Boulevard from a rail station. It is not a welcoming pedestrian environment. That is why a Centrum station is so important to make public facilities more accessible to public transit riders, but we know that will never happen, despite initial plans.

People are not going to give up their cars in suburban locations where traffic is generally not bad and parking abundant unless transit is extremely convenient. I am not convinced that what we are currently doing will accomplish this. It is still a commuter service into downtown and a few other locations, and even that is not done well if a 1 to 2 km walk is expected or a very inconvenient bus transfer.

I have a similar (unpleasant) walk to South Keys Station. Would I consider this on a regular or even an irregular basis? No. And this is from someone who enjoys walking and who walks daily during the winter months when I am not working my seasonal job.

I'm usually not a fan of adding too many stations, too close to one another in the suburbs, but Centrum might be justified as it has broader destinations such as Shankman, City services, a cinema and the YMCA (or whatever that may become). Huge potential to build a proper urban district book-ended by PdO and Centrum, similar to Bayview-Pimisi or Tremblay-St. Laurent (potential, but nowhere near so far).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why 3 tracks?

Various reasons. During the PM rush hour, some trains will end at Blair, so that third track will be used to turn the train around. It can be used in the morning or during major events to launch extra trains. It can also be used to park a disabled train instead of pushing/driving it all the way back to Belfast Yards.

Algonquin Station will also have similar infrastructure with two pocket tracks to store trains. And of course Lincoln Fields with its third platform.

Hurdman is in the books to get one as well (curve coming from Tremblay), but who knows if/when that will be built. I think that one, and another in the Scott Transit trench (not in the plans) would be beneficial for major events at LeBreton and/or if the arena is ever built.