Metro Vancouver Bike/Pedestrian Discussion

[go_leafs_go02]

Yeah, only heard about Critical Mass a few months ago, but yet I have closer visions to G20 protesters than actual cyclists when I think about them.

They have a point, and yeah, cycling is a perfectly valid way to commute, although I don't have a bike here, and commute everywhere, my job actually involves cycling and making improvements to the network within Metro Vancouver.

I definitely would like to cycle, but the fact that I seem to bounce around (move between here and my home in Ontario), getting a bike is just something I would have to lug around.

BTW, for those familiar with Dunsmuir, what's your thoughts on the new green surfacing at intersections. I noticed they've been installed within the last week.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by racc

... I know the details on how the city did the estimation....

Oh, on that fact I have absolutely no doubt, rc.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I first heard about Critical Mass a couple of years ago and from what I gleaned it sounded like it might be a fun bike event to be part of. I never got around to attending one, and with what's been happening recently I don't think I'd go near it now.

I'm in complete agreement with Stingray. In terms of swaying public opinion they're probably hurting the cycling cause more than the most vociferous of the anti-cycling crowd.

It's too bad, because cycling vs. cars really isn't an "either/or" thing. Both can co-exist very happily if everyone is just a bit tolerant and uses some common sense.

Yeah, it's a real shame. They kind of remind me of those black hoodie thugs who co-opted the anti Olympic protests last February.

I would expect, or at least hope, that any credible cycle advocate would really want to distance themselves from the Critical Mass antics.

[madmigs]

Here's a cool video of how Boulder, CO became a bicycle friendly city(I know, I know, I hate video and would rather read it as its faster...)

http://truth-about-green.blogspot.co...e-traffic.html

Its about 13 mins...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by IanS

Yeah, it's a real shame. They kind of remind me of those black hoodie thugs who co-opted the anti Olympic protests last February.

I would expect, or at least hope, that any credible cycle advocate would really want to distance themselves from the Critical Mass antics.

I've never supported nor never will support the tactics of the Critical Mass Group. I'm not against a group of cyclists getting together. But hitting people cars and or being beligerent. Is going beyond being a cyclist and becoming an asshole.

A lot of people do not seem to follow the simple rule of "Due unto others as you would have them to to you" They never once stop to think if they were in the other shoe would they appreciate it.

As for stats and cycliing. One year is not enough time to make an informed decision. In fact you really need 5-10 years of stats on a year over year basis. Also you can never compare a month like January to a month like July . Whether it be with cycling or anything else. Do the year over year comparision, but also compare it to other years. Just because you see a 10% increase is great, but what if in the past 5 years there had been a yearly drop of 5%. Now that 10% doesn't look so great. Alas though I'm used to politicians of all ilks using stats to further their cause.

You are always going to see a drop in the number of people of cycling during the winter months. Biggest reason is you are going to loose your cyclist who is just out to have an enjoyful ride, during the winter months. A bigger stat to look at is how many cyclists who commute daily do you loose during the winter months. That is the change that I feel is most important.

[whatnext]

Thanks cabotp, its good to hear a voice of reason. IMHO Critical Mass is akin to me gathering a couple hundred people from a show n' shine somewhere and have their vehicles clog up bike routes throughout the city. Its disrespectful and childish.

Has anybody seen any correlation of stats that might show if the "fairweather" bike riders in the summer are being pulled from cars, or from transit?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised to see a major political backlash against the Dunsmuir/Hornby bike lanes, which is fomented by these Critical Mass riders who many consider to be the de facto bike lobby.

Its already begun. I'd heard the NPA had been getting complaints that the city is headed in the "wrong direction" which can be attributed to the steamrolling of the Vision bike agenda. Somewhat ironic as the NPA has been responsible for creating most of the city's bike routes, but there you have it. Gregor might be safe (unless someone can persuade Carole Taylor to run ) but some of their councillors might be feeling a little nervous.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by cabotp

As for stats and cycliing. One year is not enough time to make an informed decision. In fact you really need 5-10 years of stats on a year over year basis. Also you can never compare a month like January to a month like July . Whether it be with cycling or anything else. Do the year over year comparision, but also compare it to other years. Just because you see a 10% increase is great, but what if in the past 5 years there had been a yearly drop of 5%. Now that 10% doesn't look so great. Alas though I'm used to politicians of all ilks using stats to further their cause.

I'm right with you on the way in which politicians, and some other advocates, like to use statistics.

I longer agree that a longer period of time is necessary to judge the effect of the bike lane. However, as far as before / after stats for the bike lane, all we will ever have is the period between June 16 and July 13, which is the only overlapping (ie. before / after installation of the bike lane) period for which numbers were apparently kept. Ideally, we'd have a much longer data period, to even out variables such as weather, but we don't.

Ideally, we'd also have a large data set for traffic delays before / after installation of the bike lane, but I don't think those are available at all.

[racc]

Looks like bike lanes are good for business.

http://www.emilydrennen.org/research_trans.shtml

Twenty-seven randomly selected merchants located in the Mission District of San Francisco were interviewed about what impacts the Valencia Street bicycle lanes have had on their businesses. Four after the bike lanes were built, the vast majority of the interviewees expressed support for the bike lanes. Sixty-six percent of the merchants believed that the bike lanes have had a generally positive impact on their business, and the same percentage would support more traffic calming on Valencia Street. Thirty-seven percent of merchants reported that the bike lanes have increased their sales. Surprising percentages of merchants reported that increased congestion (41%) and reduced auto speed (46%) were good conditions for business. On eleven of the nineteen variables, not one merchant reported that the bike lanes had made conditions "worse", while only 6% of the overall responses were negative. These results and more are presented in the context of the aforementioned six hypotheses, and future directions for research are offered.

[whatnext]

Adelaide City Council has agreed to remove a $400,000 bicycle lane from Sturt Street in the city because of a community campaign.

The concrete bikeway was built last year between Whitmore Square and West Terrace to separate cyclists from motorists.

The council will now spend another $100,000 removing the lane.

Adelaide MP Rachel Sanderson says the lane is dangerous for pedestrians and bad for business...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...25/2908355.htm

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The concrete bikeway was built last year between Whitmore Square and West Terrace to separate cyclists from motorists.

So it's clear, the anchor of this bikeway ("West Terrace") is a cemetery. To quote an Adelaide cyclist, "it started nowhere, went nowhere, on a wide road which is already easy to ride on". Still, Adelaide is pushing ahead with 29 more lanes in (hopefully) more intelligent locations.

Design is everything.

[officedweller]

I think his point was that the article said that an observed impact of the separated bike lane was a drop is business - which is what the Hornby businesses are arguing.

Adelaide MP Rachel Sanderson says the lane is dangerous for pedestrians and bad for business.

"People couldn't get parks [parking spaces], there was a downturn in their [business] turnover," she said.

Of course Adelaide's decision to remove the bike lane would have likely been made on a cost-benefit basis - cost to local businesses versus little benefit to cyclists (due to location) - but the impact appears to have been an observable impact. In the case of Hornby - that impact would have to be weighed against the proposed use in this particular case and mitigated accordingly (which is what I think they are doing).

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

So it's clear, the anchor of this bikeway ("West Terrace") is a cemetery. To quote an Adelaide cyclist, "it started nowhere, went nowhere, on a wide road which is already easy to ride on". Still, Adelaide is pushing ahead with 29 more lanes in (hopefully) more intelligent locations.

Design is everything.

Yeah that bike lane goes from a 10 lane Road (West Terrace) to a park that is in the middle of a 4 lane road (Whitmore) and is only 2 blocks long. The satellite picture shows a total of 4 cars parked or driving on that street. It doesn't look very busy. This would be a good shared street.

I liked the Boulder Video. It shows that good planning and time builds a great city. You need to have an interconnected network of off-street and on-street, destinations, education, the whole package. Pretty much everywhere you can go easily in a car you should be able to go on a bike. Look at the Boulder bike map and you can see a great interconnected bike network. http://gisweb.ci.boulder.co.us/websi...web/viewer.htm There are bike friendly streets every 1000-2000 feet. Of course the size of the blocks and street layout grid really helps. In Surrey there is a fairly continuous grid every 4 blocks or 2625 feet of streets that interconnect. But typically every 8 blocks is a street without any bike lanes at all.
In North Surrey these are the continuous East-West streets that go between King George Hwy and 152nd Street a distance of only 3.5km that you can drive:
108 ave, 104 ave, 100 ave, 96 Ave, Fraser Hwy (at an angle), 88Ave.
These are the continuous East West routes ones you can bike on:
100 Ave, 96 Ave (adjacent powerline that ends up on a diagonal to the SW) End at 94 Ave or 92Ave at KGH. and Fraser Highway.

So if you lived around 108th Ave in Guildford and wanted to get to Whalley you would have to go up to 4 blocks North or South to go straight west. There are other routes but they are not really connected well, there is no signs or special cycle infrastructure and you usually have to divert a couple of blocks north or south to continue very far.

[twoNeurons]

I just don't get the opposition to what's essentially one path North-South and one path East-West.

You'd think we were putting an elevated freeway downtown.

Imagine when we put in a dedicated street car lane down Pacific...

[racc]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think his point was that the article said that an observed impact of the separated bike lane was a drop is business - which is what the Hornby businesses are arguing.

Not quite. They are claiming an observed impact on businesses during the trial. Some of the Hornby businesses don't want the trial to go ahead because they think there might be a decrease in business. Big difference. And of course, we have only heard from just a few of the businesses.

Who knows, the silent majority of business may think it is not an issue or might even be of benefit to their businesses. This was the case when businesses along Bloor in Toronto were surveyed regarding a potential bike lane that would have resulted in the loss of parking.
http://www.cleanairpartnership.org/p...es-parking.pdf
44% - No impact on business
30% - More customers
26% - Fewer customers

Originally Posted by officedweller

Of course Adelaide's decision to remove the bike lane would have likely been made on a cost-benefit basis - cost to local businesses versus little benefit to cyclists (due to location) - but the impact appears to have been an observable impact. In the case of Hornby - that impact would have to be weighed against the proposed use in this particular case and mitigated accordingly (which is what I think they are doing).

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by IanS

I'm right with you on the way in which politicians, and some other advocates, like to use statistics.

I longer agree that a longer period of time is necessary to judge the effect of the bike lane. However, as far as before / after stats for the bike lane, all we will ever have is the period between June 16 and July 13, which is the only overlapping (ie. before / after installation of the bike lane) period for which numbers were apparently kept. Ideally, we'd have a much longer data period, to even out variables such as weather, but we don't.

Ideally, we'd also have a large data set for traffic delays before / after installation of the bike lane, but I don't think those are available at all.

Ideally those stats wouuld also include other variables. What was the weather that day (temperature (hi and low), cloud cover, or any rain)? Was it a holiday? And so on.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I just don't get the opposition to what's essentially one path North-South and one path East-West.

You'd think we were putting an elevated freeway downtown.

Imagine when we put in a dedicated street car lane down Pacific...

I get the feeling the opposition isn't against bike lanes per say. The opposition is just against change in general.

People don't like change because it disrupts how they are accustomed to doing things.

[tybuilding]

I rode the Union bike route onto the viaduct and the Dunsmuir bike path yesterday. Wow it is really great from my experience. I got in from around the Broadway-Commercial Drive skytrain station to Waterfront in about 20 minutes. The new green intersection markings are really good as well. It really gives an indication to drivers of the priority of the bike lane. As for the number of cyclists there were certainly enough to warrant the need for the bike lane, at least as many cyclists as one lane of vehicle traffic. I must say it was hard for me to soak it all in as I flew across that area so fast, but I suppose that is a good thing!

[renthefinn]

Rained quite a bit today, didn't see much use of the bike lanes on Dunsmuir when i rolled back into town around 7pm, after the rain had died down quite a bit.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

Rained quite a bit today, didn't see much use of the bike lanes on Dunsmuir when i rolled back into town around 7pm, after the rain had died down quite a bit.

I took the bus and skytrain yesterday, it was too wet for my liking but there were still some at my office cycling, even upwards of 20 km. I must say it would of been some fun to go past all of the traffic for the Alex Fraser in the morning.

I think it would be interesting to see a survey of Metro Vancouver commuters of how far they have to go to work and what modes of transportation they use, not just limited to a survey like this:

Pick one:
Transit
Car
Bike/walk
Those types of surveys do not seem to useful.

Does anyone have a link to a detailed survey?