Federal Government & Politics II

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

100%

Trudeau and the gang are so sanctimonious they don’t realize they needed to reframe the election. A capital gains tax increase was fine but some other tax cut to match. And most importantly an offsetting tax cut in lieu of rebates.As we discussed GST for example.

Trudeau's plan was dumb, late and desperate. The time to implement tax increases was 2015 when they could have argued that it was necessary to pay for the new social program. Or even in 2019. They could have targeted property appreciation with taxes on non-primary residence. Now they want to play like they are fighting the rich. And of course, it's not going to work. This is obviously going to get reversed.

[Build.It]

BC was the first place that ever ran a carbon tax rebate program, and then they stopped doing it.

Right now the only place in the world that have a carbon tax rebate program are certain other Canadian provinces.

Only in LPC world does it make sense to fight climate change by returning the pollution punishment and making electric vehicles more expensive.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Build.It

It's worth repeating that Canada is the only place in the world that rebates the carbon tax.

Canada is pretty much the only country in the world with a consumer-facing carbon tax.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Canada is pretty much the only country in the world with a consumer-facing carbon tax.

This is like the debate about including the sales tax or separating it. What's the functional difference between cap-and-trade, except for being less efficient and transparent? The Europeans favour cap-and-trade specifically because it is opaque and creates markets for emissions trading and derivatives. I would argue that a system that creates room for thousands of highly paid rent-seeking traders is inefficient.

You're usually pretty astute. But you're letting your dislike for the Liberals blind you here. As a policy, a fee and rebate system is far more transparent and efficient and less distortionary than literally any other carbon pricing scheme. If you don't believe carbon should be priced, that's at least more honest.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is like the debate about including the sales tax or separating it. What's the functional difference between cap-and-trade, except for being less efficient and transparent? The Europeans favour cap-and-trade specifically because it is opaque and creates markets due emissions trading and derivatives. I would argue that a system that creates room for thousands of highly paid traders is inefficient.

You're usually pretty astute. But you're letting your dislike for the Liberals blind you here. As a policy, a fee and rebate system is far more transparent and efficient and less distortionary than literally any other carbon pricing scheme. If you don't believe carbon should be priced, that's at least more honest.

But no other jurisdiction of any size that has anything that behaves like a carbon tax. Europe has a very limited cap and trade system on the industrial sector. China has an even more limited cap and trade system on the industrial sector. The US has nothing at a national level. India has nothing. Russia has nothing. Australia has nothing. There is no jurisdiction of any size that is “pricing” carbon on consumers.

[theman23]

Apparently the Liberals secret weapon against inflation was tanking productivity. It's a feature, not a flaw!

At 8:39:
• Video Link
Love Vassy Kapelos' "WHAT??"

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is like the debate about including the sales tax or separating it. What's the functional difference between cap-and-trade, except for being less efficient and transparent? The Europeans favour cap-and-trade specifically because it is opaque and creates markets for emissions trading and derivatives. I would argue that a system that creates room for thousands of highly paid rent-seeking traders is inefficient.

You're usually pretty astute. But you're letting your dislike for the Liberals blind you here. As a policy, a fee and rebate system is far more transparent and efficient and less distortionary than literally any other carbon pricing scheme. If you don't believe carbon should be priced, that's at least more honest.

The Europeans haven't really added cap and trade that impacts consumers either. Mostly because they already had excise taxes on gasoline. They do charge fees for car registration and purhcase depending on the jurisdiction that have increased but there is no argument that that increaess consumer prices. Not only do they have no carbon tax on heating fuels they recently have been subsidizing them. But they certainly tax peronsal transport so that is fair. And it clearly works at reducing it's contribution to carbon.

Taxing it on the margins may get a few furnace swithcers and hybrid purchases but isn't going to funadmentally change our lifestyle which is what is required. That is simply not going to happen politically for some nebulous meaningless contrbution to worldwide climate change.

Carbon Tax and rebate makes sense if we are committed to change and ramping it up over 20 years could get us to European tax levels but it's very much a technocratic response ignoring political realities. Surveys saying Canadians demand climate change action ignore they really only want ot do it if it doesn't cost them anything. Which isn't real commitment.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But no other jurisdiction of any size that has anything that behaves like a carbon tax. Europe has a very limited cap and trade system on the industrial sector. China has an even more limited cap and trade system on the industrial sector. The US has nothing at a national level. India has nothing. Russia has nothing. Australia has nothing. There is no jurisdiction of any size that is “pricing” carbon on consumers.

You're better than this. Come on now. Again, can you explain what the functional difference is between cap-and-trade at the industrial level which filters through to consumers and consumer carbon tax? Is your argument here that the wrong system was implemented? In which case, again, any province has the choice to do just that. See Quebec. For the fucking millionth time, nobody has to use the federal backstop. If your argument is that we just shouldn't price emissions at all say that.

You're right that India and Russia don't have carbon prices. Why should we care? How much do we trade with them beyond services for India? As for the US, that may not apply carbon pricing at home, but they are running headlong into implementing carbon tariffs for imports.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The Europeans haven't really added cap and trade that impacts consumers either.

This is massively ignorant on economics. Are you actually arguing that European oil refiners simply eat the carbon tariffs they pay and don't pass it on to consumers? Why do you think their power prices, petrol prices, natural gas prices, etc are so high?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're better than this. Come on now. Again, can you explain what the functional difference is between cap-and-trade at the industrial level which filters through to consumers and consumer carbon tax? Is your argument here that the wrong system was implemented? In which case, again, any province has the choice to do just that. See Quebec. For the fucking millionth time, nobody has to use the federal backstop. If your argument is that we just shouldn't price emissions at all say that.

You're right that India and Russia don't have carbon prices. Why should we care? How much do we trade with them beyond services for India? As for the US, that may not apply carbon pricing at home, but they are running headlong into implementing carbon tariffs for imports.

As I said above there isn't a cap and trade acting like a consumer carbon taxin the EU. Quebec's cap and trade is not hitting consumers like the federal backstop is. It's claimed to be 10 cents a litre but it's a bit opaque and looking at gas prices in Quebec they seem to have converged wtih Ontario and when Ontario reintrouduces our excise tax Ontario will be priced above Quebec which will be very new as Quebec like Europe has had higher excise taxes for 30+ years.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is massively ignorant on economics. Are you actually arguing that European oil refiners simply eat the carbon tariffs they pay and don't pass it on to consumers? Why do you think their power prices, petrol prices, natural gas prices, etc are so high?

I agree there isn't an economic difference if they are the same price.

But in Europe the high excise taxes have existed for a long time and any new tarrifs included giving free credits to large emmitters making increases a drop in the bucket. Some jurisdictions have lowered excise taxes as well or provided other aide. Europe is revolting against high energy costs but it's not something new.

Yes there are proposals for a Border Carbon adjustment that would start to hit refiners and cause increaes that are more noticeable. We will see if the non-democractic EU can get these pushed through despite member state oppposition.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As I said above there isn't a cap and trade acting like a consumer carbon taxin the EU. Quebec's cap and trade is not hitting consumers like the federal backstop is. It's claimed to be 10 cents a litre but it's a bit opaque and looking at gas prices in Quebec they seem to have converged wtih Ontario and when Ontario reintrouduces our excise tax Ontario will be priced above Quebec which will be very new as Quebec like Europe has had higher excise taxes for 30+ years.

Canadian gasoline taxes are already comparable to Europe. Ontario gas taxes are about 50 cents a litre (carbon, excise and sales taxes). EU gas taxes are as little as 29 euro cents (43 Canadian cents).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Quebec's cap and trade is not hitting consumers like the federal backstop is. It's claimed to be 10 cents a litre but it's a bit opaque.....

Quebec has a lower carbon price because they participate in an emissions market with California which has lower prices. I'll say it once again, this is an option available to any province. Ontario was part of that deal too until Doug Ford decided he would try and run against it.

But on the actual point, cause I'm not wasting my time debating two of you who are being wilfully obtuse.

1) Provinces have the choice. They don't have to use the backstop or rebate revenue. If you have a problem with the federal backstop, don't use it. The backstop is designed the way it is, because it's the easiest to implement and administer for the federal government in any province. Very difficult to simply drop in carbon markets into a province. Ideally the feds would want none of the provinces using the backstop.

2) There's no demonstrable functional difference between cap-and-trade and carbon tax, for consumers. It all gets filtered through. Any difference from the systems simply comes from lower prices that might result from participating in a wider emissions credit pool (as Quebec does). What is debatable is whether Quebec should be allowed to keep it's non-compliant deal with California. That's another debate entirely.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

non-democractic EU

From one ignorant thought to the next.

Have you heard about the EU Parliament or is it just that hard to get past the right wing talking points you consume?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Canadian gasoline taxes are already comparable to Europe. Ontario gas taxes are about 50 cents a litre (carbon, excise and sales taxes). EU gas taxes are as little as 29 euro cents (43 Canadian cents).

Does the Ontario total include the suspended excise tax?

EU has a minimum excise tax of 35 euro cents and only a few Eastern European members where a litre of gas is nearly an hour of wages have the minimum excise level. They also have VAT of usually 20%+ though that is on everything it does make the excise tax at least 42 euro cents. The only places that have seen large increases in gasoline taxes are the same Eastern Europeans who have seen their wages double or triple over the same time period.

Yes we are on track by 2030 to have European level gas prices. This is actually my point that consumers in Europe are not seeing effects of a carbon tax and thus I agree with you we are the only place in the world seeing a rapid increase in consumer prices because of a carbon tax. (I am sure there are small exceptions somewhere)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Quebec has a lower carbon price because they participate in an emissions market with California which has lower prices. I'll say it once again, this is an option available to any province. Ontario was part of that deal too until Doug Ford decided he would try and run against it.

But on the actual point, cause I'm not wasting my time debating two of you who are being wilfully obtuse.

1) Provinces have the choice. They don't have to use the backstop or rebate revenue. If you have a problem with the federal backstop, don't use it. The backstop is designed the way it is, because it's the easiest to implement and administer for the federal government in any province. Very difficult to simply drop in carbon markets into a province. Ideally the feds would want none of the provinces using the backstop.

2) There's no demonstrable functional difference between cap-and-trade and carbon tax, for consumers. It all gets filtered through. Any difference from the systems simply comes from lower prices that might result from participating in a wider emissions credit pool (as Quebec does). What is debatable is whether Quebec should be allowed to keep it's non-compliant deal with California. That's another debate entirely.

I don't disagree with any of this. But you would also admit a lower cap and trade price is a lower price regardless of the reason. Ours doesn't start to change behaviour until it's probably double current rates so if we didn't have a federal backstop we would be even further from that point.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're better than this. Come on now. Again, can you explain what the functional difference is between cap-and-trade at the industrial level which filters through to consumers and consumer carbon tax? Is your argument here that the wrong system was implemented? In which case, again, any province has the choice to do just that. See Quebec. For the fucking millionth time, nobody has to use the federal backstop. If your argument is that we just shouldn't price emissions at all say that.

You're right that India and Russia don't have carbon prices. Why should we care? How much do we trade with them beyond services for India? As for the US, that may not apply carbon pricing at home, but they are running headlong into implementing carbon tariffs for imports.

A cap and trade in the industrial sector (particularly using a 15 year old baseline) barely trickles down to consumers in the EU, particularly when most transportation and heating are exempt. The only impact that consumers might see is a minuscule increase in the price of cars if they use EU steel (although how much of a price of car is the steel). You are insisting that Canadian consumers pay a price on carbon that nobody on earth has to pay, to address a global problem where Canada’s role is a rounding error. Canadians smell this bullshit and it is one of the main reasons Liberal support has tanked.

Canada should have a price on carbon that matches the major emitters, not one that is drastically higher.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And this is one of the greatest problems I have with the carbon tax.

By collecting it and then rebating it (to virtuous or less privileged taxpayers), you have effectively just created a vehicle for income redistribution. You are employing a few thousand new civil servants in Revenue Canada just to reshuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic. It is an absurd tax.

I am not 100% philosophically opposed to a modest punitive carbon tax, but, Jesus Christ, if you are going to collect the money, then do something creative with it! I would prefer if they used the money for climate mitigation strategies instead

I'm with you on that. I benefit from the rebates, because I work from home and am considered to be in a "rural" area so get even an even higher amount. But I'd rather see the money go towards improving health care and the environment.