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  #1141  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:07 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Carolina v Duke (basketball only) is the best college rivalry IMO.
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  #1142  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:39 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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The ASU v UA rivalry is certainly one of the fiercest in the Nation and most filled with actual hate as opposed to some which are friendly rivalries (IE Oregon St v Oregon).

Phoenix and Tucson have somewhat legitimate reasons to hold grudges against each other as well. Tucson seems eternally upset abut missing out on the capital which it feels like it should've had being the oldest city and having it before Phoenix. Then of course there's Tucsons not so well hidden anger about Phoenix growing much faster and becoming the states dominate city. Its clear that Tucson seems to harbor some jealously about that.

From Phoenix's point of view its all about education. While its the bigger and more regionally important city, Tucson through its control of ABOR has hamstrung Phoenix in the only way it can by denying the area high quality higher education. They've at every turn tried to hurt ASU and thus the Valley in general. Of course this is petty and short sighted as it hurts the whole state.

All that being said Im glad to see ASU & UA are (academically) burying the hatchet. No one outside of Arizona knows or cares about Phx v Tucson, and the two cities need to work together to make the "Sun Corridor" region nationally competitive which it certainly isn't at the moment.
I think people from Phoenix more or less "dismiss" Tucson, and that is also not good for the entire state. The shining light in this whole thing is that regardless of what Phoenicians believe (or think they believe) about Tucson, there are many people from outside of Arizona who find just as much value in Tucson as they do in Phoenix.

I'm not quite sure why people from Phoenix dismiss Tucson the way they do. After all, Phoenix was once an area of a million people and certainly didn't used to have alot of what it has now - in addition to the fact that it is the top tier city in the state so it already has an advantage. It seems like now that Phoenix has "grown", Phoenix thinks it is somehow "better" when really it is like a sibling child to Tucson who won the "lottery" and is now showing off its new status. Not quite like someone with class who was born into money. It should come as no surprise why you'll find a bunch of $30,000 millionaires in the valley who also display this type of behavior.

Tucson doesn't pretend to be anything that it is not.
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  #1143  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 6:53 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Those so called "$30,000 millionaires" tend to be single 20 somethings with no major expenses. If one is making 30k with no spouse/kids isn't yet focused on planning for retirement, roommates cheap rent, then one can live a lavish nightlife here.

A 21 year old making 30k is gonna party like a rockstar while he/she can and Phoenix Metro has great places to party like this.
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  #1144  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:18 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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hell yeah when I was 21 I used to go out and buy drinks for everyone and not even be phased by a $300 bar tab. Nowadays I can't even afford to drink at home.
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  #1145  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:27 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Those so called "$30,000 millionaires" tend to be single 20 somethings with no major expenses. If one is making 30k with no spouse/kids isn't yet focused on planning for retirement, roommates cheap rent, then one can live a lavish nightlife here.

A 21 year old making 30k is gonna party like a rockstar while he/she can and Phoenix Metro has great places to party like this.
There are many $30,000 millionaires out of their 20's.
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  #1146  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 7:40 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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You've never heard the term "tend to" have you?
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  #1147  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 8:01 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
You've never heard the term "tend to" have you?
Honestly, I really don't pay that much attention to you. I haven't really found your posts to be very relevant to development issues - more like rants; however, I think you did post a couple of nice photos once.
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  #1148  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 9:43 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Honestly, I really don't pay that much attention to you. I haven't really found your posts to be very relevant to development issues - more like rants; however, I think you did post a couple of nice photos once.
what a response, ignore the question and post a rant complaining about rants.
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  #1149  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 9:59 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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what a response, ignore the question and post a rant complaining about rants.
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  #1150  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 10:54 PM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Well, then, please see my signature line and check out that thread. That shows just a bit of city of phoenix built history (that's left).



Ummmmm, exactly. Just because something is older, doesn't mean it has more "history". That's like saying a 100 year old man that has spent the past 50 years of his life in hospice has a more interesting history than the 70 year old dos equis "world's most interesting man". A tiny settlement prodding along doing nothing for 5,000 years does not have nearly the history (again, it's not all about time) of a huge city that has seen thousands of historical events come and go. The history book of Tucson would be 50 pages long, whereas that of L.A. would be a 30-part series of encyclopedias. Phoenix would be somewhere in the middle... but closer to Tucson.

Meh, arguing on the internet against people like this is a lot like:
Your logic is ridiculously flawed. So I guess since Los Angeles has more people than Rome, Los Angeles has a more interesting history? Really? Nevermind that Rome has been a city for 2,500 years? Phoenix has more people than Athens, Boston, San Francisco, DC, Charleston, and New Orleans. I guess Phoenix has a more interesting history than all those places.

Tucson and Phoenix were BOTH small, Native American settlements. Tucson happened to actually urbanize BEFORE Phoenix. Until the early 20th Century, Tucson was the more populous city. Where are Phoenix's missions like San Xavier del Bac? Where is Phoenix's equivalent to Tucson's Barrio Viejo, the first urban nieghborhood in Tucson? They are non-existent.

I agree that it is pointless to go back and forth with someone who thinks that there is a direct correlation between the size of a city and the richness of its history.
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  #1151  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2009, 11:13 PM
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/\ You are hopeless, I never said anything about a direct correlation between population and amount of history (ie more population guarantees greater history). Although, if a city has more people in and funneling through it, it's likely to have a richer history. But I did say there is no correlation between time and amount of history. I can think of 892372937429374 different historical things that went on in Los Angeles. I can think of 2 that went on in Tucson. Different places are famous/have things happen in them/create genres of life, if you will... it's not time that creates history, it's the people.

The fact that you're trying to make it seem like I was implying Phoenix has a more interesting history than Athens or San Francisco (which, again, you are a moron, because those cities actually have a much larger popluation... no one considers only city proper) is a joke.

P.S. So, since Phoenix has no Barrio Viejo (although there is Heritage Square, slightly different), and maybe Phoenix has torn down more of its buildings, that means no history was ever made, photographs and accounts are non-existant, and that means it's a soulless no-history city??? I believe those were your words....
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  #1152  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2009, 3:33 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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The Salt River Valley once had a Hohokam population of over 100k. At this very time, it was larger than the cities of London and Paris. Thats something to think about while we're talking history.
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  #1153  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2009, 5:37 PM
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I love a good slap fight.
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  #1154  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2009, 1:04 AM
kaneui kaneui is offline
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As the only one of three downtown luxury condo proposals to begin construction, novice developer James LeBeau soon found that both demand and sufficient financing for his adaptive reuse project were in short supply:



A conceptual drawing of the completed 44 E. Broadway with
34 condos, retail, a pool and clubhouse.
(render: Inside Tucson Business)


44 E. Broadway condo projects heads for foreclosure
By Joe Pangburn
Inside Tucson Business
September 04, 2009

Another downtown condominium project has stalled as the owners of 44 E. Broadway face notice that it and two adjacent vacant lots face foreclosure auction in November. The notice was filed Aug. 31 and the auction is scheduled for Nov. 24. “I’m not excited this is happening, but I am relieved that there is an end in sight,” said James LeBeau, managing member and part owner. “After four and a half years, I want out.” LeBeau was part of a group of private investors who put $1.6 million in cash into the deal, along with a $2.9 million loan. The trustee notice is for $2.86 million. The property was acquired in 2005 for nearly $2.6 million.

LeBeau and his partners moved forward on renovation of the building for a sales area and what was to be 34 higher-end condominiums. The original plans were approved by the city but after that, things started to slow. “We just couldn’t find the right contractor to come in and develop these,” LeBeau said. “And when things started going bad, people started running.” He said it wasn’t a lack of interest in the property that halted the project because he fielded nearly 200 calls from interested parties. “Because we told people we weren’t ready until we had our contractor selected, rumors began to spread that nothing was happening,” he said. The north façade of the building was torn down in preparation for a new one that would face along Broadway. But that is where construction stopped. “I was just too early on this,” LeBeau said. “You know, they say the early bird gets the worm, but they also say the second mouse gets the cheese.”

The building has three floors that are each about 20 feet tall, able to accommodate 10 two-story condos. The roof was first planned to be used as a gym for the building, but later was redesigned to have for penthouse condominiums with views from each side. The ground floor was planned to include retail with a swimming pool deck above it. “It was going to be a true live/work space,” LeBeau said. The property looks out onto the site of The Post, a languishing condo development on Congress Street, which developer Don Bourn acquired from the City of Tucson for $1. That grates on LeBeau, who said he had to pay $15,000 to the city for a 9 foot-by-80 foot piece of sidewalk in front of the 44 E. Broadway building. “It doesn’t bother me, I mean that was going to be used for outdoor seating or something, so it was going to be leased out,” LeBeau said. “I’m not bitter about Don’s deal either, I really like him. I think that’s great if he was able to secure it for that. We didn’t have that kind of help from the city and I just can’t carry this project anymore.”

LeBeau said he hopes whoever ends up with the property will finish it as he envisioned. In 2007, the property appraised for $5.5 million as is and the appraiser estimated it would be worth $12 million with the completed plans before the penthouse units were added. Besides the 44 E. Broadway building near Scott Avenue, the auction includes two adjacent vacant parcels, at 18 E. Ochoa St. and 20 E. Ochoa St. LeBeau is offering to help whoever acquires the building at auction by giving them the plans in hopes of speeding it along. And he still believes in downtown, likening it to where the Scottsdale Waterfront shopping area was six years ago. “Everyone said that area would never work,” he said. “I think these things go in cycles and everyone gets down on an area just before it explodes. I think that will happen to downtown Tucson.”
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  #1155  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2009, 1:34 AM
kaneui kaneui is offline
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Trolley route includes two Downtown stops
September 04, 2009
http://www.downtowntucson.org/


The Old Pueblo Trolley makes two stops on its loop through Downtown. The Trolley stops on Fifth Avenue between Congress Street and Broadway. It also stops on Toole Avenue just before it heads northbound through the Fourth Avenue Underpass. The Old Pueblo Trolley runs from 6-10 pm on Fridays, noon-midnight on Saturdays and noon-6 pm on Sundays.

For more information visit www.oldpueblotrolley.org or call 792-1802.
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  #1156  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2009, 4:54 AM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
/\ You are hopeless, I never said anything about a direct correlation between population and amount of history (ie more population guarantees greater history). Although, if a city has more people in and funneling through it, it's likely to have a richer history. But I did say there is no correlation between time and amount of history. I can think of 892372937429374 different historical things that went on in Los Angeles. I can think of 2 that went on in Tucson. Different places are famous/have things happen in them/create genres of life, if you will... it's not time that creates history, it's the people.

The fact that you're trying to make it seem like I was implying Phoenix has a more interesting history than Athens or San Francisco (which, again, you are a moron, because those cities actually have a much larger popluation... no one considers only city proper) is a joke.

P.S. So, since Phoenix has no Barrio Viejo (although there is Heritage Square, slightly different), and maybe Phoenix has torn down more of its buildings, that means no history was ever made, photographs and accounts are non-existant, and that means it's a soulless no-history city??? I believe those were your words....
That's exactly what you said. I guess that's how logic classes are taught at ASU?

I love how you try to change the mean of what you wrote because you realize how ridiculous it is. You really do sound like a babbling idiot.

You keep bringing LA into the argument. Is it because you really can't think of 1 historical thing that happened in Phoenix? LA isn't Phoenix. If you are going to attempt to refute my Tucson vs. Phoenix arguments, the least you can do is actually compare Tucson to Phoenix.

You are the one who came up with the assertion that there is a correlation between the size of a city and the richness of its history. So even if you want to back track now because you now realize that your medicine was wearing off faster than you thought when you made that comment, your argument is still absurd. Phoenix DOES have a larger metro population than Athens. Are you STILL going to try to claim this argument that there is a direct correlation between population size and history? Phoenix has a larger metro population than New Orleans. Are you going try to claim that Phoenix's history is richer than New Orleans'? I guess when Phoenix's metro population takes over San Franicsco's, Phoenix will suddenly have a more interesting history than the Bay Area's. For a place with such a "rich" history, why would the city and its residents allow historic buildings to be torn down? What does that tell you about what Phoenix thinks of its history? Look a Phoenix's "historic" Union Station. It sits boarded up with no Amtrak service, while Tucson's much smaller station is home to a market, restaurant, and a bar with live music AND Amtrak service. Look at the previous state of Luhrs Towers or the Westward Ho. The city of Phoenix lets them fall into disrepair and no one cares.

Have you ever been to Barrio Viejo? NOTHING like Heritage Square.

It's apparent that you are not capable of forming a coherent argument. Please respond, though. I always enjoy a hearty daily chuckle.
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  #1157  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2009, 2:12 PM
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i dislike vicelord john as much as anyone. im sure most people he meets in life elicit a "what a douche!" reaction to his arrogance and lack of civility which surely are just defense mechanisms for some inherent insecurity. but, damn dude, you are arguing in the most circular fashion here. just drop it. nobody thinks tucson lacks history. and nobody thinks phoenix is an inferior city in the grand scheme of things. and neither of them hold a candle to new york, cairo, or, hell, even denver as unique, thriving places on the world map. i am from tucson and lived there for too many years scraping by. it is a black hole for ideas, urban and ecoomic progress, and is bascially just a haven at this point for "street art" and retirees.
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  #1158  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2009, 2:51 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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I think you are mistaken about who is arguing? I'm not saying, and haven't said anything about the history of either city.

????????
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  #1159  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2009, 5:39 PM
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poconoboy... your logic or thought process using one or two (flawed) examples then wrapping that up along with everything else in absoultes is what is absurd. After reading your last post, my honest reaction was "I bet this guy is a commenter on the azcentral message/comment boards."

Think what your useless mind wants, in all honesty, I don't give a shit. I will however give you the Athens thing... I had no idea that metro was only 3.2 mil... or 4 mil... depending on where you read. i would have thought at least 5.
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  #1160  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2009, 6:13 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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Originally Posted by somethingfast View Post
i dislike vicelord john as much as anyone. im sure most people he meets in life elicit a "what a douche!" reaction to his arrogance and lack of civility which surely are just defense mechanisms for some inherent insecurity. but, damn dude, you are arguing in the most circular fashion here. just drop it. nobody thinks tucson lacks history. and nobody thinks phoenix is an inferior city in the grand scheme of things. and neither of them hold a candle to new york, cairo, or, hell, even denver as unique, thriving places on the world map. i am from tucson and lived there for too many years scraping by. it is a black hole for ideas, urban and ecoomic progress, and is bascially just a haven at this point for "street art" and retirees.
Let me ask you, how long has it been since you've actually lived in Tucson? I moved here in late '92 from Austin (Dallas and Chicago prior), and I have to admit I do not believe I've seen as much activity downtown as I have recently. Tucson may not be "thriving" in your head, but it certainly isn't without its own uniqueness; the same can be said for Phoenix. As far as being a haven for just "street art" and retirees, I think you are way off base. Perhaps the best of Tucson was left behind during your move.
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