Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Biden probably even sees the entire Ukrainian - Russian conflict as a distraction (and probably Israeli-Hamas too, for that matter).

The Biden administration see the conflict as the teaching lesson for our European Allies to get the FUCK serious.Poland, Finland, Sweden and the Baltics
are tuned in and getting serious. The older Western Allies are in a push pull of disbelief as they thought Military matters were solved and its time to continue more Socialism. It is time, but for a more 1930's like Socialism.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Oh My, look at the strategic position of Halifax. Folks in Canada don't know then forget why the Brits did not leave Halifax until 1906. Location, Location, Location. Halifax is one hours sailing time off the Great Circle route from the Eastern trade routes and is the Eastern most terminus for the North American InterContinental Rail system. American Abrams ,M109'S and Trucks from the Northern California Desert can be in Halifax in about 6 Days and loaded at the deep water pier at CN Autoport in Eastern Passage N.S.
CN Autoport has capacity for over 10,000 vehicles and is less than 1 mile away from CFB Shearwater in one direction and 1.5 Million Gallons of POL in another. Four Deep water Tanker berths connecting them.less than 5 Kilometers to the west in Bedford Basin is the second largest Ammo dump in Canada. Over half of Canada's Torpedoes, 155 MM Artillery shells and most of our 57mm Naval Gun shells . In between is 4 Square Miles of Industrial Park with a lot of Marine centric Companies.

The Halifax area is also the fourth largest aerospace concentration in Canada with most of it Military in Focus. Companies like Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics,Harris,L3 and the Home Team IMP. A disproportionate target for a drunk Russian twit to hit with very little consequences as the large City's of Canada would be spared not to mention the U.S.. Yet a serious location knocked out for anyone.

You have way too much of an inflated sense of importance for Halifax on the global stage. Visit a port city home to a major American naval base and you'll get some perspective when you look out of the hotel window and see 5 flat tops in the harbour and more destroyers than you can be bothered to count. If the Americans are relying on Halifax, you might as well start learning Russian. There's nothing so important in Halifax that the Americans don't already have or can't replicate.

And just like Gander is far less important to global aviation in the modern era, Halifax is really not that important to naval warfare in the modern era where a single P+8 can surveil all of Canada's coast from Yarmouth to St. John's in hours. Also, if we're going just by location, St. John's is even more important. Further into the Atlantic and perched right at the Labrador Sea. Halifax is mostly sunk cost and economic legacy.

Halifax is important to Canada as a major commercial and naval port. To the Americans, it's a cute place to have a port call where their sailors can practice visiting a foreign country.

[lio45]

Yeah, back when Canada was a Dominion, and Britain was still a major global power, and the British and Americans weren’t so close nor automatic allies on everything, of course Halifax was a somewhat strategic location — for the British.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, back when Canada was a Dominion, and Britain was still a major global power, and the British and Americans weren’t so close nor automatic allies on everything, of course Halifax was a somewhat strategic location — for the British.

There was a time Americans parked fighters in Newfoundland. Now they're building rotorcraft that can fly from New York to LA. Technological change can diminish geographic value.

[Djeffery]

Depends on how wide a war Russia was wanting to take things and how many actual functioning nukes they have, but I could see them sending a few to military and industrial targets in Canada. Hell, I can see Putin nuking Pearson Airport simply because that's where his cargo plane has been seized.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Depends on how wide a war Russia was wanting to take things and how many actual functioning nukes they have, but I could see them sending a few to military and industrial targets in Canada. Hell, I can see Putin nuking Pearson Airport simply because that's where his cargo plane has been seized.

Countries don't just fling nukes (or any other strategic weapon) randomly during wars. Real life is different from movies and videogames. There's a whole plethora of targets around the world that are substantially more important for Russia to hit before just about anything in Canada. Not to mention there's consideration of the escalation ladder where hitting closer to the US mainland is substantially more escalatory than say hitting Guam. Anything heading for Toronto or Halifax has a trajectory where a few degrees of steering change on re-entry could have them hitting Chicago or Boston instead. So the US is very unlikely to see such targeting as something that doesn't warrant substantial numbers of places in Russia getting glassed.

I get that we all want to feel important. And a good chunk of Canadians living on sentiment from WWII accomplishments value this substantially. But the reality is that we're really not that important and we will never be more important militarily to the US than say Japan, South Korea, UK, Australia or Singapore. This is a good thing. We're blessed by geography. We should feel compelled to contribute because we're blessed with so much.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get that we all want to feel important. And a good chunk of Canadians living on sentiment from WWII accomplishments value this substantially. But the reality is that we're really not that important and we will never be more important militarily to the US than say Japan, South Korea, UK, Australia or Singapore. This is a good thing. We're blessed by geography. We should feel compelled to contribute because we're blessed with so much.

"My country's cool enough to get nuked by the Russians/Chinese!" pouts Canadian blessed by geography to be far away from just about every problem that will result in huge misery.

Fuckin' weirdos.

If you really wanted to get nuked badly, put this weird energy into making Canada a military target worth hitting. Bonus: We might be respected a little more on the world stage and be a global player.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Countries don't just fling nukes (or any other strategic weapon) randomly during wars. Real life is different from movies and videogames. There's a whole plethora of targets around the world that are substantially more important for Russia to hit before just about anything in Canada. Not to mention there's consideration of the escalation ladder where hitting closer to the US mainland is substantially more escalatory than say hitting Guam. Anything heading for Toronto or Halifax has a trajectory where a few degrees of steering change on re-entry could have them hitting Chicago or Boston instead. So the US is very unlikely to see such targeting as something that doesn't warrant substantial numbers of places in Russia getting glassed.

I get that we all want to feel important. And a good chunk of Canadians living on sentiment from WWII accomplishments value this substantially. But the reality is that we're really not that important and we will never be more important militarily to the US than say Japan, South Korea, UK, Australia or Singapore. This is a good thing. We're blessed by geography. We should feel compelled to contribute because we're blessed with so much.

I get it, I do, but you are talking common sense which is something Putin and his leadership seems to lack. We are an active contributor to Ukraine and our government led sanction efforts. Like I said, it's about how big he wants to make it. Does he launch 3? Obviously those are for high value targets. 50? Who knows.

[Truenorth00]

Sweden is reinstituting full conscription for the first time since the Cold War. Those who don't want military service will be trained in Civil Defence, with their Civil Defence organizations now being trained for substantial infrastructure attacks after Ukraine.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...-duty-nato-war

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You have way too much of an inflated sense of importance for Halifax on the global stage. Visit a port city home to a major American naval base and you'll get some perspective when you look out of the hotel window and see 5 flat tops in the harbour and more destroyers than you can be bothered to count. If the Americans are relying on Halifax, you might as well start learning Russian. There's nothing so important in Halifax that the Americans don't already have or can't replicate.

And just like Gander is far less important to global aviation in the modern era, Halifax is really not that important to naval warfare in the modern era where a single P+8 can surveil all of Canada's coast from Yarmouth to St. John's in hours. Also, if we're going just by location, St. John's is even more important. Further into the Atlantic and perched right at the Labrador Sea. Halifax is mostly sunk cost and economic legacy.

Halifax is important to Canada as a major commercial and naval port. To the Americans, it's a cute place to have a port call where their sailors can practice visiting a foreign country.

Halifax would be an easy, no consequence target for our Russian Idiots. Doesn't actually hit America and far enough away to be a headline in Canadian City's but then what would Canada do? Nothing, warm thoughts and prayers but a strategic location out of action and there again, no consequences.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Halifax would be an easy, no consequence target for our Russian Idiots. Doesn't actually hit America and far enough away to be a headline in Canadian City's but then what would Canada do? Nothing, warm thoughts and prayers but a strategic location out of action and there again, no consequences.

Any missile on a trajectory for the east coast of North America from Russia would induce a huge response from the United States.

This won't be a logical response because there won't be time to think about where it is going given the response lead times.

"Oh, it hit Halifax and not Boston or New York. Phew. Better not strike back."

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

"My country's cool enough to get nuked by the Russians/Chinese!" pouts Canadian blessed by geography to be far away from just about every problem that will result in huge misery.

Fuckin' weirdos.

If you really wanted to get nuked badly, put this weird energy into making Canada a military target worth hitting. Bonus: We might be respected a little more on the world stage and be a global player.

Aspire to be a target worth nuking!

I wonder how that would sell as a slogan in an election!

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I get it, I do, but you are talking common sense which is something Putin and his leadership seems to lack. We are an active contributor to Ukraine and our government led sanction efforts. Like I said, it's about how big he wants to make it. Does he launch 3? Obviously those are for high value targets. 50? Who knows.

I just don't understand this line of thinking. Do you imagine that Putin wakes up one morning and decides that Canada has to the first hit in WW3? Because under any other scenario, Russia is going to be getting glassed long before they get to Canada on the target list. Heck, I wonder if Putin even knows where Halifax is!

Also, this whole "we contributed to Ukraine so we might get nuked" thing is literally Russian fearmongering. Why help perpetuate that message? And if we're going by aid given to Ukraine, we're (unfortunately) going to be rather low on the list:

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Any missile on a trajectory for the east coast of North America from Russia would induce a huge response from the United States.

This won't be a logical response because there won't be time to think about where it is going given the response lead times.

"Oh, it hit Halifax and not Boston or New York. Phew. Better not strike back."

Yep. Pretty insane to imagine a world in which ICBMs are flying and hitting within a few hundred kms of American soil and the Americans sitting back and taking it.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Halifax would be an easy, no consequence target for our Russian Idiots. Doesn't actually hit America and far enough away to be a headline in Canadian City's but then what would Canada do? Nothing, warm thoughts and prayers but a strategic location out of action and there again, no consequences.

This is just not a logical scenario. But if you think this is a genuine threat, then the logical response would be Canada independently fielding a nuclear deterrent. Because anything less puts our citizens at risk. How much are you willing to pay in taxes and what services are you willing to give up to fund a survivable nuclear deterrent?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Aspire to be a target worth nuking!

I wonder how that would sell as a slogan in an election!

I'm not in comms for a reason.

Given the commentary above, it might actually get some votes. Like six of them, but it's probably better than what the federal Liberals can come up with at this point.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yep. Pretty insane to imagine a world in which ICBMs are flying and hitting within a few hundred kms of American soil and the Americans sitting back and taking it.

As thewave46 pointed out, I'm 99.9% sure that a Russian ICBM heading generally towards Boston/NYC would get zapped midflight over the Atlantic by air defenses, without anyone even beginning to think it could possibly have been headed for Halifax of all targets -- even if in fact, it were

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm not in comms for a reason.

Given the commentary above, it might actually get some votes. Like six of them, but it's probably better than what the federal Liberals can come up with at this point.

"Century Initiative: 100 million Canadians by 2100! Sure, most of them will probably live in tents, but on paper we'll be look much more worthy of getting nuked!"

[lio45]

Haligonians, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but let's face it, you're just not going to get nuked; however if I may venture a suggestion, how about you start believing the 1917 explosion was the deliberate work of a foreign power intending to eliminate your extremely worthy and strategic city? It's not a nuke, but it's the next best thing.

(It's actually the largest manmade non-nuclear explosion ever, if I'm not mistaken.)

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

To be fair, I think it's pretty ridiculous that Canada stayed out of BMD. It really hurts the functioning of NORAD. Especially in a world where space and missile defence are increasingly merging into each other.
.

Why did Canada stay out BMD?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Why did Canada stay out BMD?

It was a reaction to the bad optics of cozying up to the Bush Administration by the federal Liberals in the mid-2000s when Iraq was a thing.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by lio45

(It's actually the largest manmade non-nuclear explosion ever, if I'm not mistaken.)

Was. According to this, the recent explosion in Beirut overtook 1917 Halifax.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3478...20in%20History