Ontario Highways - Page 58

Dengler Avenue · #**1141** Posted **Dec 31, 2021, 10:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Too far out in what sense?

From 404, exit to 401 is km 17 and the one to future Bradford bypass is km 55. Bypassing Toronto via that route will add ~80 km to the drive.

Djeffery · #**1142** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 12:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Too far out in what sense?

Bradford Bypass is 404-400, and quite a bit north. The 413 is basically what you are thinking of that will hopefully put some competitive pressure on the 407, at least in the 400-401 segment you mentioned.

swimmer_spe · #**1143** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 1:58 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

From 404, exit to 401 is km 17 and the one to future Bradford bypass is km 55. Bypassing Toronto via that route will add ~80 km to the drive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Bradford Bypass is 404-400, and quite a bit north. The 413 is basically what you are thinking of that will hopefully put some competitive pressure on the 407, at least in the 400-401 segment you mentioned.

I think you both misunderstand what I mean.

There are talks of many new highways for the GTA. The problem is that the ones we already have, that are tolled, are not being properly utilized. In short, their price is too high to be used. So, hearing the desire to do something about 413, makes me think of the Bradford Bypass and how if the 407 was significantly cheaper it would be able to handle that which the Bradford Bypass is to be used for. Just like if the 407 was a lot cheaper, then i could be a proper bypass for all traffic going through Toronto. What is interesting is that the PCs were the ones that sold it off, and might be the ones to find a way to regulate it better. An odd thing indeed.

Djeffery · #**1144** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 2:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I think you both misunderstand what I mean.

There are talks of many new highways for the GTA. The problem is that the ones we already have, that are tolled, are not being properly utilized. In short, their price is too high to be used. So, hearing the desire to do something about 413, makes me think of the Bradford Bypass and how if the 407 was significantly cheaper it would be able to handle that which the Bradford Bypass is to be used for. Just like if the 407 was a lot cheaper, then i could be a proper bypass for all traffic going through Toronto. What is interesting is that the PCs were the ones that sold it off, and might be the ones to find a way to regulate it better. An odd thing indeed.

I'm not sure we misunderstand what you said. It was 2 simple sentences that have nothing to do with the paragraph you put in above. So, we both answered what you said. As for this post, even Steven Del Duca has acknowledged in interviews that the 407 contract is iron clad. The province isn't getting it back. Either way, the Bradford Bypass isn't going to divert that much traffic from the 407 to provide any type of pressure on the consortium to lower fees. The 413 on the other hand, might have that leverage.

swimmer_spe · #**1145** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 2:35 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The 407 costs about $20 to use between the 400 and 401 W. That is ridiculous. I feel the push for the Bradford Bypass will be a good thing for the 407 becoming more affordable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I think you both misunderstand what I mean.

There are talks of many new highways for the GTA. The problem is that the ones we already have, that are tolled, are not being properly utilized. In short, their price is too high to be used. So, hearing the desire to do something about 413, makes me think of the Bradford Bypass and how if the 407 was significantly cheaper it would be able to handle that which the Bradford Bypass is to be used for. Just like if the 407 was a lot cheaper, then i could be a proper bypass for all traffic going through Toronto. What is interesting is that the PCs were the ones that sold it off, and might be the ones to find a way to regulate it better. An odd thing indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I'm not sure we misunderstand what you said. It was 2 simple sentences that have nothing to do with the paragraph you put in above. So, we both answered what you said. As for this post, even Steven Del Duca has acknowledged in interviews that the 407 contract is iron clad. The province isn't getting it back. Either way, the Bradford Bypass isn't going to divert that much traffic from the 407 to provide any type of pressure on the consortium to lower fees. The 413 on the other hand, might have that leverage.

I will explain how the 2 are related better.

413 is a toll highway that is a connection to another toll highway, the 407. Both the 407 and the 413 are not congested.

There is a plan for the "GTA West Corridor" which basically follows the 407 between the 400 and 401. There is another proposed highway; the Bradford Bypass which looks similar, but a little further north. Again, the section of the 400 and 404 is not congested. If Durham can gain enough traction with lowering, or even removing the tolls on the 413 and the provincially owned sections of the 407, we could see a bigger push to have the tolls of the private 407 lowered, or the government create a contract that removes those tolls as well.

In short, the 4 highways are connected in the way they are delivered to the locals.

Djeffery · #**1146** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 6:52 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I will explain how the 2 are related better.

413 is a toll highway that is a connection to another toll highway, the 407. Both the 407 and the 413 are not congested.

There is a plan for the "GTA West Corridor" which basically follows the 407 between the 400 and 401. There is another proposed highway; the Bradford Bypass which looks similar, but a little further north. Again, the section of the 400 and 404 is not congested. If Durham can gain enough traction with lowering, or even removing the tolls on the 413 and the provincially owned sections of the 407, we could see a bigger push to have the tolls of the private 407 lowered, or the government create a contract that removes those tolls as well.

In short, the 4 highways are connected in the way they are delivered to the locals.

Far as I know, the 413 IS the GTA West, it isn't in Durham and I also see no reference to tolls on the project website. And the 407ETR is not going to revert back to provincial control until the lease expires, no matter how much denial you have about it. But I know, just like the various VIA rail threads, you will keep saying it can happen.

swimmer_spe · #**1147** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 6:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Far as I know, the 413 IS the GTA West, it isn't in Durham and I also see no reference to tolls on the project website. And the 407ETR is not going to revert back to provincial control until the lease expires, no matter how much denial you have about it. But I know, just like the various VIA rail threads, you will keep saying it can happen.

... Using Via as an example, I have been saying they need a fleet renewal since I joined. Everyone said that was never going to happen. So, as I sit here, looking at what is happening I will say that there is a tipping point that the government will allow before they realize they are at risk of losing an election.

When the 2 short connectors were being proposed, early on, there was no mention they would be toll highways.

Innsertnamehere · #**1148** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 6:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The 407 costs about $20 to use between the 400 and 401 W. That is ridiculous. I feel the push for the Bradford Bypass will be a good thing for the 407 becoming more affordable.

1. 407ETR is indeed significantly more expensive than the new provincial 407 in Durham. My experience is that the 407 is about half the cost of the 407ETR as a general rule.

The 407 doesn't charge the $1 entry fee for one, and then charges between $0.19-$0.30/km depending on time of day, while the 407ETR charges $1 to just get on the highway then $0.35-$0.55/km depending on time of day.

The problem for Durham is that everyone has a perception that the 407ETR is prohibitively expensive and assumes the 407/412/418 is as well, while in reality it really isn't that expensive.

2. Ford has publicly said that the 413 and Bradford Bypass will not be tolled.

swimmer_spe · #**1149** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 6:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

1. 407ETR is indeed significantly more expensive than the new provincial 407 in Durham. My experience is that the 407 is about half the cost of the 407ETR as a general rule.

The 407 doesn't charge the $1 entry fee for one, and then charges between $0.19-$0.30/km depending on time of day, while the 407ETR charges $1 to just get on the highway then $0.35-$0.55/km depending on time of day.

The problem for Durham is that everyone has a perception that the 407ETR is prohibitively expensive and assumes the 407/412/418 is as well, while in reality it really isn't that expensive.

2. Ford has publicly said that the 413 and Bradford Bypass will not be tolled.

You believe when a politician says something? Impressive.

Dengler Avenue · #**1150** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 6:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You believe when a politician says something? Impressive.

Well it’s a GTA riding. He has to.
Don’t be salty just because you live in Sudbury. Wanna move down and join us?

swimmer_spe · #**1151** Posted **Jan 1, 2022, 7:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Well it’s a GTA riding. He has to.
Don’t be salty just because you live in Sudbury. Wanna move down and join us?

ah hell no!

sonysnob · #**1152** Posted **Jan 2, 2022, 12:07 AM**

The signs approaching the QEW/403 split in eastern Oakville:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/QEW_i...ec21_24x16.jpg

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ec21_24x16.jpg

Dengler Avenue · #**1153** Posted **Jan 2, 2022, 12:09 AM**

“QEW
Toronto (Downtown)”
Now that’s new.

sonysnob · #**1154** Posted **Jan 2, 2022, 12:28 AM**

Although it seems like that would be a new way to sign Toronto from the QEW, it's been like that for a long time:

This is from 1991:

haljackey · #**1155** Posted **Jan 3, 2022, 4:12 PM**

Great pics!

It's seems like the 403/QEW interchange has been worked on for years and years. To me it looks the same as before??? Was it all just rehabilitation?

Hopefully whatever was fixed up supports more lanes so the HOVs can be extended on the QEW and the 403 can be 6-laned to the 407 interchange.

sonysnob · #**1156** Posted **Jan 5, 2022, 5:20 PM**

^Thanks, the bridges at the 403 and Ford Drive were replaced. The new bridges are designed to accommodate a future widening of the QEW, but no new lanes were added as part of the construction work.

ScreamingViking · #**1157** Posted **Jan 5, 2022, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

^Thanks, the bridges at the 403 and Ford Drive were replaced. The new bridges are designed to accommodate a future widening of the QEW, but no new lanes were added as part of the construction work.

I seem to recall plans (or at least notions) to add a ramp from QEW westbound to the 403 -- is that part of this project too? Or was space created to add one? (perhaps off the Ford Drive exit?)

sonysnob · #**1158** Posted **Jan 5, 2022, 5:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I seem to recall plans (or at least notions) to add a ramp from QEW westbound to the 403 -- is that part of this project too? Or was space created to add one? (perhaps off the Ford Drive exit?)

The missing ramps are theoretically still on the books, but they weren't added as part of this project, and there isn't a firm timeline for there addition.

ScreamingViking · #**1159** Posted **Jan 5, 2022, 7:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The missing ramps are theoretically still on the books, but they weren't added as part of this project, and there isn't a firm timeline for there addition.

Thanks!

And yeah, should be "ramps"... if you're going to add one from QEW WB to 403 it makes sense to have a flyover from 403 to QEW EB (though that would be a big structure). Imagine being able to more easily avoid heavy congestion on the QEW in Oakville/Burlington by detouring up to the 407. It would also provide an alternate high-speed route between the towns in north Halton and downtown Toronto.

Innsertnamehere · #**1160** Posted **Jan 5, 2022, 8:47 PM**

I would use the missing ramps decently often. Right now when going downtown I take the 407/403/401/427 about as often as the QEW all the way as the other route is often faster... Most of the congestion is usually in Oakville and Burlington though, so being able to hop back down to the QEW would be faster. Provided of course that the new ramps don't induce more traffic onto that stretch of the QEW haha. MTO is making some decent capacity increases on that stretch that should make it better overall so hopefully not.

The plans for the eventual upgrade are on Oakville's website: (warning, large PDF)

https://www.oakville.ca/assets/gener...EW-execsum.pdf

Notably it includes a sort of mini express-collector from the 403 through the Winston Churchill interchange for vehicles accessing Winston Churchill or Ford Drive.