Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

walk away...this is crap.

[markbarbera]

It is easy for everyone to say walk away, but there are serious consequences to simply voting down the proposal tomorrow. LIUNA has a demolition permit, and the only condition is to ensure samples of the unique architectual elements (i.e terra cotta detailing) are safely removed and stored prior to demolition. The demolition can start 24 hours after council makes its final decision. The Lister is already surrounded by scaffolding provided by a demolition company.

Should council vote down the proposal Monday night, the Lister will be on its way down on Tuesday night. Is this really what we want? If so, what was the purpose of the 'Save the Lister' movement? A yes vote may cost us a bundle, handing the cash to an organization that none of us think much of, and the Lister will be restored for a use that may not be the most appropriate for it. However, a no vote is certain to reduce the Lister to nothing more than a black-and-white photo in the next edition of 'Vanishing Hamilton'. The way I see it, LIUNA has us by the reproductive organs, and we have little choice but to hold our nose and go with the offer. Then, make sure council revisits the rules around heritage buildings to guarantee that we can't be held hostage like this again.

[HAMRetrofit]

Save it immediately!

Sue when said organization does not pull threw on negotiated phases.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Many numbers have been bandied about in thepast. However, the $25 million agreement of purchase and sale put forward to council tomorrow includes rehabilitation of the Lister.

The agreement being presented tomorrow is available online and can be found here. It is very detailed and specific on how the rehabilitation process is to be followed.

I am not going to read the 55 pages today, but page 2 clearly states $25M, excluding leashold improvements. Back to my previous assertion, $25M is only the entry fee.........

If they go ahead, I am confident they will need to add $12M minimum (significantly more then $25M) to complete the project.

[markbarbera]

The tenant improvement costs are factored into the report's capital cost summary on page 17 of the report, coming to 3.3 million. Tenant improvement costs were estimated by MHPM Project Managers Inc., so rest assured they are solid, reliable numbers. Not sure what you are drawing on when you estimate these improvements topping $12 million.

The net capital cost of the purchase works out to $22 million, once the $7 million provincial contribution is factored in.

[hmagazine]

LETTER CALLING FOR THE IMMEDIATE PROVINCIAL DESIGNATION OF THE LISTER BLOCK IN HAMILTON, ONTARIO

NOTE: Mr. Premier, I attach the original correspondence (2 letters) on which the following letters were based, both of which were provided by your government through an FOI request. I do this so that you are better able to compare the two letters. As you will see, they differ only slightly in tone, structure and intent. Although I am only a citizen of Ontario, and not a significant financial contributor to the Liberal Party as is the original author, I trust your response will be as sympathetic to my request for you to become involved in the immediate designation of the provincially significant Lister Block, as was your response to the original author, Mr. Joseph Mancinelli on June 29, 2006 asking you to not become involved. To facilitate your response, I have taken the liberty of drafting your response based on your letter to Mr. Mancinelli of June 29, 2006. Finally, although I have not had the pleasure of hosting you, nor any of your senior Ministers, at my private residence in Hamilton as Mr. Mancinelli has done, I would welcome an opportunity to do so when you are next in Hamilton visiting friends. My personal contact information is included in the letter.


June 22, 2008

The Hon. Dalton McGuinty

Premier of Ontario
Room 281, Legislative Building
Queen’s Park
Toronto, Ontario
M7A 1A1

Dear Premier McGuinty,

I am writing with regards to an important development for downtown Hamilton that is in jeopardy due to a lack of provincial involvement. For the past several years, LIUNA and the City of Hamilton have been planning the renewal of a most significant part of the downtown core, that being the derelict Lister Block.

LIUNA say they are ready to proceed with a nearly $30 million project, originally to replicate the building, but now to restore the building, including the use of a $7 million

Hamilton City Councillor Brian McHattie, Councillor for the city’s Ward 1, may vote against proceeding with the project, along with some other Councillors, and adopts the philosophy that the costs seem too high. This regard for the financial impact of the project is prudent and responsible, however, and even though there may be enough votes for McHattie to win his point, he has embraced the democratic process and has referred the matter to the Minister of Culture, Aileen Carroll in a letter that he sent on Friday, June 20, 2008. The Ministry’s responsibility is over provincially significant buildings, of which the Lister Block is, as recorded in a Minister-commissioned report produced by the Ontario Heritage Trust. Therefore, the provincial government should get involved in a matter that is both a Hamilton and a provincial issue with which Council and LIUNA are having difficulty dealing.

I urge you to look into this matter and urge your government to become involved in the rebirth of Hamilton’s downtown core. Any action by the provincial government will assist and support a much needed resurgence of Hamilton.

With kind regards, I remain

Sincerely,

Graham Crawford

[hmagazine]

PROPOSED DRAFT OF PREMIER DALTON MCGUINTY’S RESPONSE


Dear Mr. Crawford,

Thank you very much for writing on behalf of the citizens of Hamilton to share your concerns regarding the preservation of the Lister Block in Hamilton. It is always a pleasure to hear from a concerned citizen of the province of Ontario.

I appreciate being made aware of the work being done to contribute to the rebirth of a vibrant downtown core in Hamilton. I understand that my colleague the Honourable Aileen Carroll, Minister of Culture, has not met with you, nor responded to any of your attempts to meet. She has refused to meet with any members of the Lister Working Group that was convened under my authority, despite their repeated requests.

I also understand that the Minister has not visited the site and, therefore, has not availed herself of a tour of the building. We are confident that the city, the development and the heritage communities will be unable to come to a mutually acceptable agreement without the direct involvement of the Minister of Culture in providing provincial designation for the Lister Block. My colleagues and I are worried that all concerned parties will be unable to work toward a solution that would revitalize the downtown core, protect an important part of Ontario’s heritage, and demonstrate fiscal responsibility by Councillors on behalf of the taxpayers of Hamilton.

Mr. Crawford, thank you again for writing and making me aware of your concerns on this vital issue. Please accept my warm regards and best wishes.

Yours truly,

PREMIER’S SIGNATURE TO BE ADDED HERE

Dalton McGuinty

Premier

c: The Honourable Aileen Carroll

[Millstone]

Time is almost up.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The tenant improvement costs are factored into the report's capital cost summary on page 17 of the report, coming to 3.3 million. Tenant improvement costs were estimated by MHPM Project Managers Inc., so rest assured they are solid, reliable numbers. Not sure what you are drawing on when you estimate these improvements topping $12 million.

The net capital cost of the purchase works out to $22 million, once the $7 million provincial contribution is factored in.

In my experience when various numbers are bandied about, $25M, $34M, $44M (see my earlier post with links), no one really has a handle on the end cost.

I will be the first to admit the $12M figure I threw out is just a number I pulled out of the air (probably like those other numbers). You yourself have just posted that it is $22M once the provincial contribution is factored in.

So, again it is not $25M it is a different (higher) number. Any way you cut it, add it to the list of numbers above.......... In my opinion, no one has a handle on the final number, but it certainly will not be $25M, or less. That I will guarantee.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

It is easy for everyone to say walk away, but there are serious consequences to simply voting down the proposal tomorrow. LIUNA has a demolition permit, and the only condition is to ensure samples of the unique architectual elements (i.e terra cotta detailing) are safely removed and stored prior to demolition. The demolition can start 24 hours after council makes its final decision. The Lister is already surrounded by scaffolding provided by a demolition company.

Should council vote down the proposal Monday night, the Lister will be on its way down on Tuesday night. Is this really what we want? If so, what was the purpose of the 'Save the Lister' movement? A yes vote may cost us a bundle, handing the cash to an organization that none of us think much of, and the Lister will be restored for a use that may not be the most appropriate for it. However, a no vote is certain to reduce the Lister to nothing more than a black-and-white photo in the next edition of 'Vanishing Hamilton'. The way I see it, LIUNA has us by the reproductive organs, and we have little choice but to hold our nose and go with the offer. Then, make sure council revisits the rules around heritage buildings to guarantee that we can't be held hostage like this again.

hmmm, I hate to say it but I've got to agree with you.
I LOVE that building. LIUNA blows and will never see their rep restored in this town.
But this is all about Lister. Always has been.
I'm tired of getting Vanished Hamilton books for Christmas all the time.

[hmagazine]

Something else to ponder from Graham Crawford:

Good evening,

One last kick at this absurd cat we now call the Agreement of Purchase and Sale. As if you didn’t have enough to read.

I'm not providing a detailed analysis of the document, as I have not had enough time to review it. I will tell you that when I sold my company for an amount that I'll just say wasn't completely out of this financial ballpark, neither the vendor nor the purchaser would have tolerated a four month delay (February 27 - June 23) to be presented with this document on a Friday for a decision on the following Monday! It stinks, but I think you know that and that the person you should be taking this up with is Fred Eisenberger.

Let me highlight a couple of points to make a point:


1. The heritage dispute resolution process as stated on page 4 of 18 leaves Tim McCabe as the City’s ultimate heritage authority! Could somebody provide me with Mr. McCabe’s heritage qualifications? I get the notion of control, but this is both ridiculous and unacceptable.

2. The parking clause says that the City gets 40 spots on the land we buy from LIUNA. However, should LIUNA move ahead with the “Adjacent Development”, the City of Hamilton will GIVE them the land back and LIUNA will provide 40 parking spots within 300 metres of the Lister Block. That’s about three blocks away! That’s right, we give him back land we pay for in return for 40 parking spots up to three blocks away! The person who has negotiated this deal so far is naïve or incompetent, or both. We should set a value on the land being purchased without a building on it, and then we should sell LIUNA the land when they need to use it for the “Adjacent Development”, otherwise they get paid twice!

3. The tenant improvements are madness. The building is going to be redone for a single tenant – us. I have NEVER heard of a situation where a purchaser of a building pays to have the building developed and then is asked what they would like to have in it and pays on top of the purchase price. I understand that there has to be a limit on finishes and fixtures, otherwise the developer is exposed financially. If it will cost $3.3 million to finish the job, what kind of job are we paying for in the first place? It’s not as if the developer has an existing building that was finished generically and then has a client come along and say that we need to have a call centre on one floor, and 10 fully wired tele-conference rooms on another, etc. You get my point. I don’t know about you, but I’d like to know exactly what kind of finishes and fixtures (including elevators, HVAC, ceilings, floorings, etc.) I was getting for my $25 million!

4. There are any number of clauses that comment on what the City and LIUNA will do. (i.e. page 11 of 18 regarding City appointed third party Consulting Engineer; also page 11 of 18 regarding completing a Heritage Condition Survey). Who pays for these? Is the City on the hook for these on top of the purchase price? Where does it end?


That’s likely more than enough from me (and for you) on a Sunday night. I have to tell you that I think the so-called negotiators who took four months to do this need to have their employment questioned.

Good luck tomorrow.

I’ll be there trying to keep my blood from boiling.

Graham Crawford

[matt602]

Very good points. I have a strong feeling this thing is going to be voted down today, and we'll be battling hard to save the building from coming down this week. LIUNA is gonna whine and complain and try to destroy the building mostly out of spite, then sit on it for years as some kind of "payback" to the city for not playing their way.

[SteelTown]

My prediction.....

They'll be enough council support for the agreement.

[raisethehammer]

I agree with Steeltown, I think.
Council knows what types of thugs they're dealing with.
The building will be down by end of week if they vote this down.

[SteelTown]

It helps that LIUNA is one of the largest political donator for most councillors.

Also if LIUNA really hated the deal it would have walked away Sunday and it would have been front-page news this morning. We'll see if there have been any amendments added to the agreement this morning.

[realcity]

I think it will be struck down, because of the $1 million guarantee, I think The City might come down to $500,000 but Liuna won't agree on the number of units. This to me is a deal breaker, 100 units minimum or no deal.

[realcity]

This is what I don't understand.

Suppose the City doesn't agree to move into Lister. Then Liuna tears it down (out of spite), Liuna MUST build something in it's place. What will the building be used for? Who would be a tenant if it's office? If it's residential use, then what would it be? condos? Seniors home? If that's the case then why not guarantee to build the residential tower?

I think the City needs to call their bluff. Because even it's torn down (worst case senario) they have to rebuild something. And I don't think Liuna plans on building a new building and have that sit empty.

[SteelTown]

If they demo Lister Block and build a new building it'll likely be for office space, probably a replica (back to the original plan). The square foot cost will be much cheaper and affordable for most companies/individuals. Hamilton is in severe shortage of class A office space.

Part of the old agreement was that the city would get more square foot (a complete box instead of an L shape building and much cheaper square footage rent)

Look at the Connaught project, the office space has increased so obviously there is a demand for office space.

[matt602]

If the city walks away and they get to rip the building down, there will be a parking lot on that site for the next 5 years. They only proposed to build a replica of Lister before to appease the public. The public opinion ain't gonna matter any more if they rip the original down. At that point they can build whatever stucco sided, retirement home pile of crap that they wish. LIUNA is out to make a buck, just like any other company, not to please the public. That's City Hall's job (and once the Lister is demolished, they'll have nothing to do with this any more).

Now if LIUNA does end up somehow building something tasteful on top of Lister's corpse, I'll take back everything I said. I'm sure I won't be the only one eating crow.

[itsbryan]

I still can't wrap my head around what is going through LIUNA's minds when they say they want to put a senior's home in place of Lister.

I'm a highschool graduate, with no post-secondary education (yet).. I'm not overly intelligent, yet even I have enough common sense, and understanding of the core's demographic to know that it's such a stupid idea.

Look at the area around Lister. Across King William, Fever.. a very roudy nightclub with loud music (I have fond memories of watching the roudiness from within the Balfour building).. down the street past John.. Remedy, another night club. Room 49 at the corner of Hughson.. another night club.

I can't even begin to imagine how many noise complaints those clubs are going to recieve. I lived in the core for a year, and I know that even with the windows closed, the drunks and bimbos are so loud, it's often hard to sleep. With the Fire Station right around corner, the obnoxious wailing of sirens gets to you eventually.. it's not exactly an ideal location for people trying to enjoying themselves in retirement.

When saddens me the most, is that LIUNA is getting away with all of this. They bought it in 1999 for $1.6 million.. I don't know how selling it for $25 million can even be remotely justified.. especially when they've done literally nothing to maintain it. In fact, they've done so little, a 3rd of the property has gone missing.

What they're doing should be criminal. It's extortion, and regardless of the outcome, it's a win-win situation for them.