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  #11541  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2015, 1:00 AM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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Subway that never was, 1926

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This line would follow Federal Street…and would pass under the Allegheny River through subaqueous tunnels….The line would follow Sixth Street to Liberty Avenue and thence pass under private property to Fifth Avenue on the remainder of its route throught the central business district and thence proceed through the through the Oakland District to Craig Street at Fifth Avenue. After passing under private property to Neville Street, it would follow Ellsworth Avenue to Devonshire Street and thence proceed, mostly under private property to Center Avenue west of Liberty Avenue. It would follow Center Avenue to Penn Avenue in East Liberty and thence follow Frankstown Avenue to a terminal near Dallas.
Damn, that would take me almost directly from home to my office. Amazing that it's 90 years later and we still don't have a subway to the east end.
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  #11542  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2015, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
Subway that never was, 1926



Damn, that would take me almost directly from home to my office. Amazing that it's 90 years later and we still don't have a subway to the east end.
A subway line probably would have saved the central Northside from mid century bulldozer blunders too.
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  #11543  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2015, 3:15 AM
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Forget it, Gene, its Spine Line Town.
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  #11544  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2015, 7:44 PM
Minivan Werner Minivan Werner is offline
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You could probably still run a line to the east in the same general area without too much cost. From Steel Plaza either through or underneath the Chatham Center. If not an elevated or street-level track along 5th, then run it just north of 5th through what is mostly vacant lots and overgrown hillside. Once you get into the meat of Oakland it gets a little hairy though.
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  #11545  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 1:11 AM
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Why not have it follow Fifth Avenue all the way from Downtown, through Oakland and out to East Liberty? That's what I'd do...
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  #11546  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 1:58 AM
Minivan Werner Minivan Werner is offline
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Wouldn't that clog up traffic on a major artery?
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  #11547  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 2:31 PM
Wiz Khalifa Wiz Khalifa is offline
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Originally Posted by Minivan Werner View Post
Wouldn't that clog up traffic on a major artery?
Not through Oakland it wouldn't. You could have it go down either the bus lane on fifth or one of the 4 or 5 other traffic lanes. It's where fifth goes down to 2 lanes each direction through Shadyside/Squirrel Hill where things would get interesting, IMO.

I checked Google maps, and once you get past Fifth/Neville towards Shadyside, you lose both parking lanes and get only 4 narrow lanes of traffic through there, and with numerous properties close to the road I imagine it would be a nightmare trying to secure more right away. If they want to do it right, best option would be to tunnel under Shadyside for 1.5 miles and terminate at the Transit Center in East Lib.

Last edited by Wiz Khalifa; Mar 2, 2015 at 2:47 PM.
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  #11548  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa View Post
Not through Oakland it wouldn't. You could have it go down either the bus lane on fifth or one of the 4 or 5 other traffic lanes. It's where fifth goes down to 2 lanes each direction through Shadyside/Squirrel Hill where things would get interesting, IMO.

I checked Google maps, and once you get past Fifth/Neville towards Shadyside, you lose both parking lanes and get only 4 narrow lanes of traffic through there, and with numerous properties close to the road I imagine it would be a nightmare trying to secure more right away. If they want to do it right, best option would be to tunnel under Shadyside for 1.5 miles and terminate at the Transit Center in East Lib.
I like your idea.
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  #11549  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:09 PM
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Can anyone ELI5 (Explain it to me as if I were 5 years old), WHY did Pittsburgh among many other large US cities get rid of all the street car lines and not replace them with something.
According to the top paragraph in this link, the city had 68 streetcar lines of which only 3 were replaced with light rail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Railways

Did the replacement bus service mirror these lines? It doesn't seem like it. I'm just trying to get a logical, unbiased opinion.
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  #11550  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:23 PM
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They did that in every city in Merka, not just Pittsburgh pretty much.
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  #11551  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Austinlee View Post
Did the replacement bus service mirror these lines? It doesn't seem like it. I'm just trying to get a logical, unbiased opinion.
So my understanding is that Port Authority was authorized to take over the Pittsburgh Railways Company and a bunch of other failing independent transit companies in 1963. I believe over the next few years, when they first shut down a trolley line they usually did more or less replace it with a bus route, but over time various bus service changes and contractions means there are no longer always bus routes where there used to be trolley lines.

They then entered the "Skybus" era, working on a grand plan to use an entirely new transit technology for a new system. That eventually collapsed as such, and instead what emerged was the Busways and the T. As noted by Wikipedia, the T really represents the last of the trolley lines.

Edit: By the way, it occurs to me you are asking for a deeper explanation, but I am not sure there is one that is simple and uncontroversial. The demise of Skybus, for example, is a truly convoluted story--there was politically-motivated opposition at city, county, state, and federal levels; entities with a vested interest in rival technologies; objections from city communities that thought it was too suburban; objections from suburban communities that thought it was a City takeover plot . . . there are a million reasons people come up with to say "no" to major capital investments, and when your political system was designed in the 18th Century by wealthy elites with the specific goal of making it hard to do significant new things, it can be very difficult to keep the political planets aligned long enough to get a truly significant project out of planning, through financing, and into construction. In fact, you can tell the same sort of story about the Spine Line, which got reduced and transformed into the NSC when certain elections turned out in certain ways.

Still, there is a constituency for transit investment, as demonstrated by the bits and pieces that have run the gauntlet (mainly the original T and Busways, and subsequent expansions). But replacing the trolley system with something even approximately as comprehensive would require a sustained investment of the sort that just hasn't been politically possible over the last 50 years.

Last edited by BrianTH; Mar 2, 2015 at 10:00 PM.
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  #11552  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 10:26 PM
daviderik daviderik is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austinlee View Post
Can anyone ELI5 (Explain it to me as if I were 5 years old), WHY did Pittsburgh among many other large US cities get rid of all the street car lines and not replace them with something.
According to the top paragraph in this link, the city had 68 streetcar lines of which only 3 were replaced with light rail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Railways

Did the replacement bus service mirror these lines? It doesn't seem like it. I'm just trying to get a logical, unbiased opinion.
My Grandfather worked for the company that eventually became the Port Authority of Alleghany County. One of his jobs was to stand outside of Forbes field and determine how many street cars were needed based of the crowd. Now PAT runs it all. Pgh used to have many competing bus lines in addition to the trolley. In my opinion making an "authority" to anything is horrible. It's a kin to making Giant Eagle the only grocery store allowed in the county. It's privately owned and they can charge anything they want and the customer has no recourse. If it were entirely run by local government at least you could vote the bums out. But now they cut service raise rates and threaten Harrisburg for more funding.
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  #11553  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
So my understanding is that Port Authority was authorized to take over the Pittsburgh Railways Company and a bunch of other failing independent transit companies in 1963. I believe over the next few years, when they first shut down a trolley line they usually did more or less replace it with a bus route, but over time various bus service changes and contractions means there are no longer always bus routes where there used to be trolley lines.

They then entered the "Skybus" era, working on a grand plan to use an entirely new transit technology for a new system. That eventually collapsed as such, and instead what emerged was the Busways and the T. As noted by Wikipedia, the T really represents the last of the trolley lines.

Edit: By the way, it occurs to me you are asking for a deeper explanation, but I am not sure there is one that is simple and uncontroversial. The demise of Skybus, for example, is a truly convoluted story--there was politically-motivated opposition at city, county, state, and federal levels; entities with a vested interest in rival technologies; objections from city communities that thought it was too suburban; objections from suburban communities that thought it was a City takeover plot . . . there are a million reasons people come up with to say "no" to major capital investments, and when your political system was designed in the 18th Century by wealthy elites with the specific goal of making it hard to do significant new things, it can be very difficult to keep the political planets aligned long enough to get a truly significant project out of planning, through financing, and into construction. In fact, you can tell the same sort of story about the Spine Line, which got reduced and transformed into the NSC when certain elections turned out in certain ways.

Still, there is a constituency for transit investment, as demonstrated by the bits and pieces that have run the gauntlet (mainly the original T and Busways, and subsequent expansions). But replacing the trolley system with something even approximately as comprehensive would require a sustained investment of the sort that just hasn't been politically possible over the last 50 years.
So maybe a natural erosion by consolidation and downgrades? Thank you for trying to enlighten me.


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Originally Posted by daviderik View Post
My Grandfather worked for the company that eventually became the Port Authority of Alleghany County. One of his jobs was to stand outside of Forbes field and determine how many street cars were needed based of the crowd. Now PAT runs it all. Pgh used to have many competing bus lines in addition to the trolley. In my opinion making an "authority" to anything is horrible. It's a kin to making Giant Eagle the only grocery store allowed in the county. It's privately owned and they can charge anything they want and the customer has no recourse. If it were entirely run by local government at least you could vote the bums out. But now they cut service raise rates and threaten Harrisburg for more funding.
Wow, what a job. And yeah, less competition is bad for business and the consumer.
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  #11554  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 11:17 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by daviderik View Post
Pgh used to have many competing bus lines in addition to the trolley. In my opinion making an "authority" to anything is horrible. It's a kin to making Giant Eagle the only grocery store allowed in the county. It's privately owned and they can charge anything they want and the customer has no recourse. If it were entirely run by local government at least you could vote the bums out. But now they cut service raise rates and threaten Harrisburg for more funding.
Without claiming the current situation is ideal, I think a few things are worth noting:

(1) the Port Authority is actually a County agency with a board appointed by the County Executive, and you can in fact vote out the County Executive if you don't like what Port Authority is doing and get a new Board (which is actually what happened to kill the Spine Line);

(2) my understanding is that the many private transit companies that existed before the Port Authority takeover were in fact failing financially. Generally, it is actually really difficult to make money off transit, and my understanding is that the early successes of private transit companies in the U.S. were mostly dependent on revenues that came from side deals (e.g., land deals). Once that sort of stuff tapered off they became increasingly subject to financial failure. Which doesn't mean their replacements worked out well, but the status quo was likely not sustainable;

(3) and in fact, state law allows private companies to supplement or compete with the Port Authority today, but there haven't been many companies trying to do that, even in cases where there is no competing Port Authority service.

So there really isn't much hope of effective competition in this area--private companies occasionally target a few select routes, but a comprehensive transit system is likely going to require a public agency of some sort.

As for state funding, Allegheny County pays an enormous amount of money to the state in transportation taxes, and gets a disproportionately small share back for state highway and bridge expenditures with the County. The same is true for other large urban counties in Pennsylvania--basically, they are providing massive subsidies to the rural counties to support rural state roads, bridges, and police. However, the large urban counties get a small portion of this money (by no means all of it) back in the form of state transit grants.

There are a lot of fundamentally anti-urban or anti-transit people who have made a habit of completing ignoring the massive subsidy Allegheny County is providing to the state in the form of state transportation taxes net of highway/bridge/police expenditures, and making it sound as if those transit grants are charity on the part of the state. Of course there is no doubt Allegheny County would be better off if there was NO state transportation funding system at all, and it could just keep all its tax money and spend it however it wanted. But you can't just cut off state transit spending and still make Allegheny County pay the same state taxes, since that would take an already unfair system and make it even worse.

No doubt, though, the Port Authority was not well-managed for many years. However, in the mid-2000s under Steve Bland, they really started getting their act together, with a system redesign, tougher labor negotiations, and so on. Operating efficiency increased greatly as a result, but they still had legacy problems in the form of retiree benefits (which state law protects), and rising gas costs also were a problem.

Meanwhile, the state for many years had kept its transportation taxes and fees fixed such that they were not keeping up with inflation, and there was a growing shortfall. They came up with a plan to toll I-80, but then the feds nixed that plan. When that plan fell through, it triggered an automatic cut in state transportation funding, including the state grants to the Port Authority.

The Port Authority then had to cut service--Rendell found a little temporary money, but it was not enough to prevent some immediate service cuts, and when that money ran out the Port Authority was going to have to do even more cutting. But it had no choice about this--it was using those state grants to provide service as it was supposed to, so when the state cut the grants, it had to cut the service. Ultimately, however, a new state transportation bill was passed and the Port Authority was able to cancel the future cuts and restore some of the first cuts.

Again, people who make a habit of being anti-transit described this as the Port Authority cutting service in order to extort more money from the state. But in truth it was just Port Authority responding to a funding cut, and then to funding being restored.

None of this is intended to be a criticism of daviderik's comment in particular. But it is a regrettably good example of how broken the politics of transit has become that so many people more or less accepted this framing of what happened.
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  #11555  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 11:20 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austinlee View Post
So maybe a natural erosion by consolidation and downgrades?
More or less, although many would argue (with good cause) that the Port Authority for many years was both mismanaged and underfunded, leading to more service cuts than necessary.
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  #11556  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2015, 11:31 PM
daviderik daviderik is online now
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Wow, what a job. And yeah, less competition is bad for business and the consumer.[/QUOTE]

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  #11557  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 1:36 AM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviderik View Post
My Grandfather worked for the company that eventually became the Port Authority of Alleghany County. One of his jobs was to stand outside of Forbes field and determine how many street cars were needed based of the crowd. Now PAT runs it all. Pgh used to have many competing bus lines in addition to the trolley. In my opinion making an "authority" to anything is horrible. It's a kin to making Giant Eagle the only grocery store allowed in the county. It's privately owned and they can charge anything they want and the customer has no recourse. If it were entirely run by local government at least you could vote the bums out. But now they cut service raise rates and threaten Harrisburg for more funding.
PAT was created because the independent transit companies were all falling apart and going bankrupt. Local transit is just something that doesn't lend itself to commercial operation.
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  #11558  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 2:11 AM
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Why was Steve Bland dismissed?
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  #11559  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 2:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
PAT was created because the independent transit companies were all falling apart and going bankrupt. Local transit is just something that doesn't lend itself to commercial operation.
Yeah, this was something that basically happened nationwide in the 1960s. For-profit transit was always a low-margin industry, and once a substantial number of people moved to the suburbs, and urban density began dropping, it was basically impossible to make a profit from any longer. If mass transit wasn't municipalized, we would have ended up with absolutely no mass transit at all in most cities.
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  #11560  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2015, 3:24 AM
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My question... Why was that comprehensive subway system from the '20s abandoned even with the funds in place to at least start work on it? I'm thinking it might have been a combination of the Great Depression and the onset of WWII. I know Philadelphia also had a massive subway system proposed that was never built, and I think they had already started building by the time all work was abandoned.

It sucks, really. I often wonder if adequate heavy rail transportation might have allowed for the two cities to retain some of their population during the mass exodus between 1950 and 2000.

Pittsburgh lost over half of its population, while Philadelphian with its comprehensive network of subway, regional rail, and trolley lines, was able to retain roughly a quarter of its population. Granted, their economies were different and both had different geographical factors affecting them, but still...
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