Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

YESSS!!! at the very least. I prefer the idea of dedicated corridor but please more then just a bus route with fancy stations.

WildCake nailed it earlier on, it really seems like a way for the City to pretend the Louise Bridge reconstruction is actually a transit project that qualifies for transit funding.



Because what other excuse could there be for this travesty?

[bomberjet]

Re: the purple line. I thought the master plan only had 3 rapid lines. And everything else was frequent and below. So the purple on Provencher was frequent service.

But in the eastern corridor it shows the purple as rapid transit. But then also calls it frequent service. Maybe it is to become rapid beyond 25 years, which is was the purple is labeled as along the gateway corridor.

I guess my point is, it switches from on street to dedicated lanes for a portion on Nairn, then back to on street on Nairn again. The intersection at Watt/Nairn is also busy like the intersection at Nairn/Louise birdge.

They could put dedicated lanes on the bridge and just have priority signals on either side. The buses will be waiting in traffic at Watt St anyways.

OR. Do something else and build some dedicated lanes to get across Watt and onto Nairn east of there. They will need dedicated lanes on Nairn or there really is no point in any of this. Building a new 4 lane Louise bridge will solve most of the congestion problems that exist now.

[thurmas]

$539 million announced for winnipeg transit 100 ev buses and 235 more buses as per free press

[Ando]

But yet another study on route plan and not really closer to BRT after stalling for years.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by thurmas

$539 million announced for winnipeg transit 100 ev buses and 235 more buses as per free press

And normal people still scared to ride with a drunk/addict on every bus, all riding for free, no bus shelters for paying customers, unreliable bus routes, that is if the bus actually ever show up….yeah let’s all ride the bus!

[LTC321]

Originally Posted by thurmas

$539 million announced for winnipeg transit 100 ev buses and 235 more buses as per free press

Winnipeg has to find a way to make public transportation:

1. Cheaper
2. More convenient
3. Faster
4. Safer


as opposed to taking your own car; right now it's not. How they overcome this? Who knows?

[pspeid]

From CTV news website:

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/transit-...ture-1.5981769

It seems the downtown portion of BRT is going to be the focus of a lot of this spending. IMO that's good news.

On an unrelated topic, I'd love to read, just once "advocates say....no more needs to be done".

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

From CTV news website:

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/transit-...ture-1.5981769

It seems the downtown portion of BRT is going to be the focus of a lot of this spending. IMO that's good news.

I hope so.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by pspeid

From CTV news website:

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/transit-...ture-1.5981769

It seems the downtown portion of BRT is going to be the focus of a lot of this spending. IMO that's good news.

On an unrelated topic, I'd love to read, just once "advocates say....no more needs to be done".

That’s incorrect. None of this spending will be directed to service changes or improvements. A tiny portion will go towards planning downtown rapid transit but we will have to get back in line for another half billion from all three levels before anything is actually built. Will be a decade or more away.

Sucks the largest transit funding announcement ever will have zero impact on transit. A storage garage, some replacement buses and a waste of money on electrification. Nothing but disappointment in this announcement. Who cares if they get a new shed. Is that really the priority for $200 million right now? Are electric buses really a priority? How about improving transit so it is actually a functional system.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by trueviking

That’s incorrect. None of this spending will be directed to service changes or improvements. A tiny portion will go towards planning downtown rapid transit but we will have to get back in line for another half billion from all three levels before anything is actually built. Will be a decade or more away.

Sucks the largest transit funding announcement ever will have zero impact on transit. A storage garage, some replacement buses and a waste of money on electrification. Nothing but disappointment in this announcement. Who cares if they get a new shed. Is that really the priority for $200 million right now? Are electric buses really a priority? How about improving transit so it is actually a functional system.

We should have built a Frankenshed expansion of the existing shed to really Winnipeg it up.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Sucks the largest transit funding announcement ever will have zero impact on transit. A storage garage, some replacement buses and a waste of money on electrification. Nothing but disappointment in this announcement. Who cares if they get a new shed. Is that really the priority for $200 million right now? Are electric buses really a priority? How about improving transit so it is actually a functional system.

Electrification is crucial. Riding the bus and noticing the difference in noise from a diesel instead of electric is substantial and is a huge increase to ride quality. Reducing operating costs by switching from our disgusting gas prices to the second cheapest electricity in North America is essential. We are in a climate crisis and electric busses are a core component of our climate action plan. The reduction in fossil fuels is already worth its money and then some. Don’t forget a lot of these busses will be articulated and some might even be fully automated depending on New Flyer’s progress with the xcelsior.

You also realize the North End garage upgrade is required in order to get the required amount of busses to have a functioning system? Also, this project includes a complete overhaul of all the routes in the city except for Southwest Winnipeg. That means the Rose, Yellow, and Blue line extension to Unicity will be functioning in terms of bus frequency with 5 minute headways during rush hour and articulated busses.

Y’all I’m telling you as hard as it is to believe read the transit plan it’s actually quite transformative just by simplifying the lines and putting frequent service on our densest nodes.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by trueviking

That’s incorrect. None of this spending will be directed to service changes or improvements. A tiny portion will go towards planning downtown rapid transit but we will have to get back in line for another half billion from all three levels before anything is actually built. Will be a decade or more away.

Sucks the largest transit funding announcement ever will have zero impact on transit. A storage garage, some replacement buses and a waste of money on electrification. Nothing but disappointment in this announcement. Who cares if they get a new shed. Is that really the priority for $200 million right now? Are electric buses really a priority? How about improving transit so it is actually a functional system.

Presumably the only way to get the province to green light this is to choose projects that flow money to the Tories' favourite firms/industries (e.g. New Flyer and heavy construction)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Presumably the only way to get the province to green light this is to choose projects that flow money to the Tories' favourite firms/industries (e.g. New Flyer and heavy construction)

oof. A hard dose of reality right there.

That said, I can appreciate the need for this most recent announcement. Fleet renewal, facility improvements, etc. are always going to be necessary. But I don't think the elected officials should go back to their offices after that announcement and think that the job is done.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Electrification is crucial. Riding the bus and noticing the difference in noise from a diesel instead of electric is substantial and is a huge increase to ride quality. Reducing operating costs by switching from our disgusting gas prices to the second cheapest electricity in North America is essential. We are in a climate crisis and electric busses are a core component of our climate action plan. The reduction in fossil fuels is already worth its money and then some. Don’t forget a lot of these busses will be articulated and some might even be fully automated depending on New Flyer’s progress with the xcelsior.

You also realize the North End garage upgrade is required in order to get the required amount of busses to have a functioning system? Also, this project includes a complete overhaul of all the routes in the city except for Southwest Winnipeg. That means the Rose, Yellow, and Blue line extension to Unicity will be functioning in terms of bus frequency with 5 minute headways during rush hour and articulated busses.

Y’all I’m telling you as hard as it is to believe read the transit plan it’s actually quite transformative just by simplifying the lines and putting frequent service on our densest nodes.

the revised route plan is good but it has nothing to do with this announcement. They will change the routes regardless, but the final implementation includes several new transfer stations and other infrastructure on the main routes. None of this is in this funding. Rapid transit lines are also critical to the new scheme and none of that is included.

electric buses is greenwashing. It is not an effective emissions reduction strategy in any way. Transit is not responsible for emissions in any substantive way. If every single transit vehicle in Canada was made electric tomorrow our emissions would decrease by 0.3%....a meaningless number. We are in a climate crisis. That's why we shouldn't waste our money on initiatives that don't reduce emissions....like electric buses.

What is an impactful climate strategy is getting more people to leave their cars at home and actually use transit. 50% of Winnipeg's emissions come from vehicles. Less than one percent from transit. Where is the impactful change? Nobody nowhere has ever switched their mode of travel because a battery was powering the bus. It isn't a substantive increase in ride quality and what is more important is frequency and reliability. Electric buses don't impact that. They have no impact on ridership....zero.

Electric buses cost 50% more than diesel. Their payback is in the 15 year range. A much more effective strategy would be to take the 50% added cost of electric buses and buy more buses that improve frequency and service. That would be impactful to climate.

I never understand the love for electric buses. They are just good political announcements....they are not an effective climate strategy.

also. The net new number of buses is not increasing with this announcement so the new storage building is an upgrade, not required for expansion.

[trueviking]

sorry for the aggressive reaction BBG....this is a debate i'm passionate about.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by trueviking

the revised route plan is good but it has nothing to do with this announcement. They will change the routes regardless, but the final implementation includes several new transfer stations and other infrastructure on the main routes. None of this is in this funding. Rapid transit lines are also critical to the new scheme and none of that is included.

electric buses is greenwashing. It is not an effective emissions reduction strategy in any way. Transit is not responsible for emissions in any substantive way. If every single transit vehicle in Canada was made electric tomorrow our emissions would decrease by 0.3%....a meaningless number. We are in a climate crisis. That's why we shouldn't waste our money on initiatives that don't reduce emissions....like electric buses.

What is an impactful climate strategy is getting more people to leave their cars at home and actually use transit. 50% of Winnipeg's emissions come from vehicles. Less than one percent from transit. Where is the impactful change? Nobody nowhere has ever switched their mode of travel because a battery was powering the bus. It isn't a substantive increase in ride quality and what is more important is frequency and reliability. Electric buses don't impact that. They have no impact on ridership....zero.

Electric buses cost 50% more than diesel. Their payback is in the 15 year range. A much more effective strategy would be to take the 50% added cost of electric buses and buy more buses that improve frequency and service. That would be impactful to climate.

I never understand the love for electric buses. They are just good political announcements....they are not an effective climate strategy.

also. The net new number of buses is not increasing with this announcement so the new storage building is an upgrade, not required for expansion.

Read the report again they are investing in only 100 electric busses while still purchasing 135 diesel busses because the initial cost is still not feasible to go pure electric. As the supply increases and more electric busses are built the cost of each individual bus will lower. Of course these busses are being built by New Flyer so shipping and transportation will be negligible.

Yes the revised route has nothing to do with this announcement, except that both the route and this announcement are still in line with the general rapid transit plan and timeline. You can’t separate these entities when they are both core components of the bigger picture. Because this route and electrification are interconnected that means we are indeed tackling the 50% emissions that come from transportation (it’s actually 33% for residential vehicles btw).

Ok let’s say a general diesel bus costs $500k and an electric bus at 50% higher is $750k. In the lifetime of both busses the electric busses would save $400k in fuel expenses and $125k in all the maintenance required for an ICE vehicle. More then making up for the initial cost. This is the baseline argument for BRT vs LRT and can be applied in a similar manner when comparing diesel and electric. So since Winnipeg Transit is getting 100 electric busses (for now) they would save approx $50 million in operating costs during the busses lifetime…

Finally, in terms of ride quality you’re only thinking about the people in the bus itself without considering that electric busses also make urban areas more peaceful for cyclists and pedestrians because they don’t have to go damn near deaf when a bus passes them. Their exhaust is also nauseating. Did you know that standing next to a bus is about 80-90 decibels? You could potentially get permanent hearing loss being next to a diesel bus for extended periods of time. This gets eliminated with electric.

Oh btw Electric busses actually increase ridership by 2% because of said noise quality so while not substantial a 2% increase to our annual 50 million trips means an extra million trips per year which has to be worth something.

Don’t worry TV I’m just as passionate about this debate as you are it’s great to hear a different perspective to challenge my views.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Read the report again they are investing in only 100 electric busses while still purchasing 135 diesel busses because the initial cost is still not feasible to go pure electric

What sort of insane markup do the electric buses have that make the higher operating costs of 135 diesel buses buses more expensive over the roughly 20 year useful life that seems to be the norm in Winnipeg?

Edit: That was too outrageous a claim to not look up.

According to Plugin Canada an electric transit bus costs $1,000,000 to purchase v $750,000 for a diesel bus. The electric bus has a projected operational cost savings of $50,000 per year, or a 5 year break even point after which it saves money for every additional year in service.

That's the sort of numbers you get a 5 year loan to pay off. For 135 buses that $3,375,000 in added costs.

Something definitely doesn't make sense here.

[steveosnyder]

Since other people are talking about Transit in the construction page, thought I would share my experiences with transit...

I think there are a few things that should definitely be done, but can't with the poor excuse for a payment system we have. I don't know about fully free transit, but we need to do something about distance and times. During the winter I take the bus 7 stops (less than 2km) to get to work on a full stop service. People in areas like Transcona/Riverbend/St. James/St. Norbert/etc. take an express bus 6+km to downtown. Shorter distances on non-express buses should cost less.

The other thing is the time of the trip. If you want to take a plane the Thursday before Easter you're paying a premium because a lot of people want to fly then. If you want to take a bus during peak hour into downtown it would cost you the same as it does to take the bus home from the pub at 10 at night.

If we dropped some of the local service costs, and late night service costs, it could bring more people on... then offset those potential loses in revenue with a slight increase in cost to peak service.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

Since other people are talking about Transit in the construction page, thought I would share my experiences with transit...

I think there are a few things that should definitely be done, but can't with the poor excuse for a payment system we have. I don't know about fully free transit, but we need to do something about distance and times. During the winter I take the bus 7 stops (less than 2km) to get to work on a full stop service. People in areas like Transcona/Riverbend/St. James/St. Norbert/etc. take an express bus 6+km to downtown. Shorter distances on non-express buses should cost less.

The other thing is the time of the trip. If you want to take a plane the Thursday before Easter you're paying a premium because a lot of people want to fly then. If you want to take a bus during peak hour into downtown it would cost you the same as it does to take the bus home from the pub at 10 at night.

If we dropped some of the local service costs, and late night service costs, it could bring more people on... then offset those potential loses in revenue with a slight increase in cost to peak service.

time and zone based fares add a lot of complexity:

- live syncing of card/fare data (obvious but we don't have it)
- no cash fares (drivers can't be expected to handle destination-based cash fares)
- ability to purchase cards throughout the city at all hours of service (if you can't pay cash, you need lots of easy places to buy the tap card; a handful of stores or outlets is not sufficient)
- offboard payment or a tap-on tap-off system (since you need to know when/where they got on/off if you have zone or time of day pricing)

obviously this isn't rocket science, i was in manchester and their tram system all had this. but it's a bunch of technological infrastructure we don't have.

and if we've learned anything from Peggo, Winnipeg Transit does not have the capacity/talent/skill/experience needed to successfully roll out such a system.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by trueviking

A much more effective strategy would be to take the 50% added cost of electric buses and buy more buses that improve frequency and service. That would be impactful to climate.

I never understand the love for electric buses. They are just good political announcements....they are not an effective climate strategy.

also. The net new number of buses is not increasing with this announcement so the new storage building is an upgrade, not required for expansion.

No point buying more buses when they can't attract and retain enough people to drive them.

Also, the current North car house would likely be condemned on full inspection. It needs to be either completely rebuilt or replaced. Better to replace it as there isn't enough bus storage without it in use.