The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Wonderful news for Surrey with the win of the pro SkyTrain candidate. Hopefully the LRT will get officially scrapped soon.

I agree. The LRT proposal never had a lot of support from the population but seemed to be shoved down everyone/s through by Mayor Hepner who wouldn't take transit if her life depended on it. The proposed BRT system is just as fast and will be more reliable and much cheaper and faster to build.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by nephersir7

According to the APTA numbers, there was a 10k subway ridership increase overnight, without the other modes being affected.

You call it crazy, I call it unbelievable (literally).

I don't think the total bus ridership can say much about the effect of subway expansion. I would expect some bus routes to lose ridership and others to gain ridership. Likewise if the subway service was discontinued entirely, I would expect bus ridership along the Bloor and Yonge corridors to increase significantly but bus ridership everywhere else to decrease. The total bus ridership might not change, but that wouldn't mean bus ridership was unaffected.

[nephersir7]

Originally Posted by Doady

I don't think the total bus ridership can say much about the effect of subway expansion. I would expect some bus routes to lose ridership and others to gain ridership. Likewise if the subway service was discontinued entirely, I would expect bus ridership along the Bloor and Yonge corridors to increase significantly but bus ridership everywhere else to decrease. The total bus ridership might not change, but that wouldn't mean bus ridership was unaffected.

If the subway system ridership really did increase by 40% overnight, how would these new transit users be accessing the subway? They couldn't all be walking to the stations, especially in suburban areas. So, you'd still see a noticeable increase in bus usage.

Clearly numbers don't add up and this is just the result of the TTC changing their passenger counting methodology (for better or for worse)

[Reecemartin]

The ridership definitely isn't impressive for the TYSSE rn . . . its got several of the lowest ridership stations on the network.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by nephersir7

If the subway system ridership really did increase by 40% overnight, how would these new transit users be accessing the subway? They couldn't all be walking to the stations, especially in suburban areas. So, you'd still see a noticeable increase in bus usage.

Clearly numbers don't add up and this is just the result of the TTC changing their passenger counting methodology (for better or for worse)

Although one of the stations is at one of the country's largest universities, so it would make sense that a lot of the ridership would be foot-based, and perhaps attracting students and faculty who previously used cars. And of course a couple of the stations are outside the Toronto limits so perhaps some new riders to the subway could be arriving via non-TTC buses such as YRT or GO.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by nephersir7

If the subway system ridership really did increase by 40% overnight, how would these new transit users be accessing the subway? They couldn't all be walking to the stations, especially in suburban areas. So, you'd still see a noticeable increase in bus usage.

I think you underestimate the size of York University and the huge number of buses that were serving it prior to the extension. The subway replaced or diverted a lot of bus services.

I think you also overestimate the amount of empty space on the TTC buses. This is a system that carries 60% more bus riders than STM with 10% more buses. There's not a lot of room for new riders.

Toronto's buses get 1.5 million boardings per weekday, it's the second busiest bus system in North America, and it's busier than the third largest (Montreal) by a large margin. I don't think it will get much better than that.

[Chadillaccc]

Here are the details of Calgary's MAX Southwest BRT Line. It will not be opening with the other lines in mid-November. Haven't been able to find the exact proposed opening date, but most of the construction is complete.


http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/...ay-response-public-questions-jul2016.pdf

[Innsertnamehere]

That's like 80% mixed traffic running, no?

Also, why are all of calgaries transit lines to innecessently radial? Do all roads lead downtown?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That's like 80% mixed traffic running, no?

Also, why are all of calgaries transit lines to innecessently radial? Do all roads lead downtown?

Correct, these are not BRT lines. The purple section is true BRT infrastructure but the rest is just express bus service. It's a lot better than before though, so I hope they improve on it.

As for the radial nature, true also but that really is how the city is set up so it does make sense. Two of the new not-BRT lines are cross city lines though and they have plans for a couple more though which will improve the map.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That's like 80% mixed traffic running, no?

Calgary's roads aren't that congested, so they've tried to maximize their bang for their buck by limiting dedicated lanes to problem areas, or where they think they'll run LRT later. Lots of skip lanes at problem intersections though.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also, why are all of calgaries transit lines to innecessently radial? Do all roads lead downtown?

This is old, but yes. Downtown is a very dense employment centre:
Source: http://bestcalgaryhomes.com/calgary-population-employment-growth-forecast/

[J.OT13]

Are any transit systems in Canada profitable or close to it?

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Are any transit systems in Canada profitable or close to it?

I don't think transit systems are made to be profitable. They are made to give services to the population. But if there is one, the Montréal metro system looks very popular. I heard it has the 3rd biggest number of yearly users in North America after NYC and Mexico City.

[DizzyEdge]

Also in theory the more transit is used, particularly rail, there should be some savings from tens of thousands of cars not wearing out the road system on a daily basis, as well as savings from not needing to have capital expenses widening freeways or inner-city streets to deal with traffic.

[J.OT13]

Of course, it should be about delivering a public service and getting cars off roads to decrease congestion and reduce our impact on the environment, but I'm still curious if we have a transit system that is possibly efficient to the point of profitability or close to it.

In Ottawa, I believe the cost of operations is split 50/50 between riders and property taxpayers. Because of this split, our transit fares are some of the highest (second?) in the country. Our bus based system doesn't help. Only a few bus routes are profitable, and those are the urban routes with terrible service. I'm hoping the Confederation Line. we'll see a shift that brings a reduction in fares.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That's like 80% mixed traffic running, no?

Also, why are all of calgaries transit lines to innecessently radial? Do all roads lead downtown?

Yes that specific line is very radial, as are all of our existing LRT lines. I'd say it's more like 65% mixed traffic (the dotted section along Crowchild has bus lanes for the entire dotted length), but yes it's still not perfect.

Calgary is, for better or worse, the most centralized city in the country in almost every way (and no that's not boasting, if anything its a negative). The primary nodes outside of downtown (NW Hub and Chinook) are already located along the skeletal LRT network. Of course we have a comprehensive TOD plan underway do densify employment and residential districts outside the core, but development in that respect is only in its infancy, with only about a dozen TOD towers built over the past 6 years or so, but with dozens planned and a few officially proposed. The only major mixed-use district development underway that isn't connected to the LRT network is Currie Barracks and that neighbourhood is only in its first phases, with no high rises proposed just yet. The neighbourhood is connected to both the SW BRT and the MAX South Crosstown BRT though, so it's not too bad.


Also, here is a full map of Calgary's primary transit network. Been looking for something like this for ages. The purple, brown, and blue lines are all coming online in less than a month, the yellow line by summer 2019, and the Green Line in early 2026. The map doesn't accurately reflect the 17 Ave SE BRT, as it is on a fully dedicated ROW until it reaches 9 Ave in Inglewood.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Are any transit systems in Canada profitable or close to it?

Actually yes, several are profitable in the same way that several highways are profitable.

The economic increase resulting from their existence pays taxes (sales tax, corporate tax, income tax, etc.) which turns an overall profit for the government.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

I don't think transit systems are made to be profitable. They are made to give services to the population. But if there is one, the Montréal metro system looks very popular. I heard it has the 3rd biggest number of yearly users in North America after NYC and Mexico City.

The Montréal metro by itself would make money, but the bus operations are what is costly.

[Innsertnamehere]

GO transit used to hover around a 80% cost recovery - the highest in NA. That's dropped in the past few years though as service has increased.

[p_xavier]

The new QC transport minister has met with the CDPQi to go forward with two new REM lines/extensions. The formal mandate will be made shortly.

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/10/23/bonnardel-reclame-un-prolongement-du-rem

17km in Laval connecting to the future Du Ruisseau Station and a 22km line from Boucherville to Chambly with a connection at Rive-Sud Station. But this is the CAQ plan, the REM will have its say.

[FFX-ME]

That sort of question is what is wrong with transportation in North America. Why ask if the transit system is profitable? Why not ask whether the 400-series highways are profitable, or basically roads in general. Why is public transportation the only publicly-funded transportation infrastructure that people think should be profitable? Why should our taxes pay for roadways but not transit systems that are available to all, even those without cars?