Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I keep saying that a smaller, modest 20K stadium would work for Halifax. Requiring 24K is a bit too much, IMO. 24K is an average attendance in the CFL and Halifax would be the smallest market by a fair margin.

Halifax is a bit less than 2x the size of the current smallest market.

Originally Posted by elly63

I give Frankie credit for uncovering this years ago. Hamilton was considering a design similar to Apogee Stadium (University of North Texas cap 30,850/cost $78 Million US - 2011)

Pretty much impossible in Canada. No freeze-thaw cycle and much cheaper labour available. This is one of those "non-comparable" sumouthern US stadiums someone recently mentioned.

THF is basically the Canadian "bare-bones" version of that... but with a smaller capacity and double the price tag.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Pretty much impossible in Canada. No freeze-thaw cycle and much cheaper labour available. This is one of those "non-comparable" sumouthern US stadiums someone recently mentioned.

Yeah, me.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Unless Moncton somehow steals the first Atlantic Canadian franchise, I think we're at least 50 years away from Moncton becoming the second city in the region with a team.

I think thats a reasonable prediction.

Moncton only stood a shot of landing a team if it beat out Halifax for the first Atlantic Canadian franchise. Once the CFL decided to go with Halifax, then Moncton basically fell off the radar.

I still think that Moncton is the only logical location for a second Atlantic Canadian team, but I don't think I will see that in my lifetime. Moncton is currently 150,000 people, and it probably would have to grow to 250,000 before it could support a second regional franchise. I think Moncton will eventually reach that size, but not for at least 50 years.

For the time being, Halifax will be the 10th team.

The next time the CFL expands, it will likely be to 12 teams, with Quebec City being the eastern candidate. The logical western candidate would be Saskatoon, but that would require a paradigm shift in the SK fan base.

I think it will be a long time before the CFL expands beyond 12 teams. I think the league would max out at about 16 teams in the next 50-100 years, the final candidates being Moncton, KW or London, Kelowna and Victoria.

[The S'toon Goon]

I would think adding Saskatoon would maybe be similar to when the NHL added Ottawa. You would be able generate local fan support but the majority of the people cheering would be cheering for their second favorite team. It would take decades for a Saskatoon team to develop its following.

In stadium news, Griffiths stadium which houses the Huskies football team will be undergoing some renovations in the future. The track is slated to be removed and they will be moving the stands on one side closer to the field while completing rebuilding the other side's stands. Not sure on the exact timeline but the result should make for a better environment for the U sports team.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by elly63

Hey out there, what's your model for a new Halifax stadium?

Realistically speaking the cost should be less than 150 million, seat no more than 24,000 (seats no benches) and be built to withstand a colder climate. So that means no southern climate examples that aren't winterized. And please Osmo none of your usual ridiculous trolling about cheap Canada construction posts. It's not true and lame when you constantly post it.

Maybe we should be looking at northern climate MLS examples. They're small, and relatively inexpensive.

I'll start the ball rolling how's aboot Toyota Park Chicago

Having said that, CFL teams require more seats between the goal lines and obviously less in the less desirable end zones which should be the gathering areas for the party zones. The University of Akron Stadium had a lot of backers previously.

These two probably aren't the best of ideas but they came to mind quickly and I want to see if any good examples come out of this.

I'm sure there will be some Eastern European examples but they might not be so easy to compare as we don't know many variables such as the costs of materials and labour.

How about the original THF proposal for Hamilton's Waterfront? (minus the track of course...)




PPL Park in Philly (home of MLS Union) is probably correctly scaled as well..



There's nothing wrong with end zone seating so long as the sections are elevated high enough for fans to see the other end of the field. Perhaps there's some way to integrate end zone party/bar areas into/under some endzone seating that will be satisfactory to all users.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Pretty much impossible in Canada. No freeze-thaw cycle and much cheaper labour available. This is one of those "non-comparable" sumouthern US stadiums someone recently mentioned.

Indeed. Another example would be BBVA in Houston, which was built for $95M; a pricetag impossible in Canada due to winter and labour costs.


wikipedia

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Halifax is a bit less than 2x the size of the current smallest market.



Pretty much impossible in Canada. No freeze-thaw cycle and much cheaper labour available. This is one of those "non-comparable" sumouthern US stadiums someone recently mentioned.

THF is basically the Canadian "bare-bones" version of that... but with a smaller capacity and double the price tag.

Keep in mind too, most US College stadiums are metal bench seating vs. individual fold down seats, which I am sure can add to the costs. Plus I hear the hospitality areas, suites, club seats, etc. are as good as any in the league.
It just doesn't have a roof which is rare now.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Keep in mind too, most US College stadiums are metal bench seating vs. individual fold down seats, which I am sure can add to the costs. Plus I hear the hospitality areas, suites, club seats, etc. are as good as any in the league.
It just doesn't have a roof which is rare now.

Yes. Every once in a while some idiot will pipe up about "American high school stadiums are better than CFL stadiums" etc., but that's a pretty clear indicator of someone who has never been to one.

US college facilities are generally pretty simple places. Bench seating is the general rule, very basic F&B options, no premium seats (beyond the mandatory alumni club-type area), or other facilities that you typically see at the pro level. I haven't been to THF but from what I've read online I'd wager that it is well above all but a handful of NCAA facilities in terms of amenities.

[User Name]

THF is a decent looking brand new stadium with poor surroundings. TD Place is an ugly looking old stadium with great surroundings.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yes. Every once in a while some idiot will pipe up about "American high school stadiums are better than CFL stadiums" etc., but that's a pretty clear indicator of someone who has never been to one.

Yeah I remember the trolls going on about that Texas stadium vis a vis THF. The hilarious thing was that the high school stadium was condemned not long after opening.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by User Name

TD Place is an ugly looking old stadium with great surroundings.

How can it be old when more than half of it was newly built?

[FFX-ME]

^ The other half is from 1967. It's first incarnation was in 1908.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

Yeah I remember the trolls going on about that Texas stadium vis a vis THF. The hilarious thing was that the high school stadium was condemned not long after opening.

They closed it for a year to fix the problems... it's back in action now. That stadium got so much press that in the popular Canadian imagination it has become the "standard" American high school football stadium when the reality is closer to this:

[Acajack]

I may have mentioned this before but friends of ours are involved in high school football with their kids in the northern suburbs of Dallas. (Neither of the parents are Americans, nor are they from countries with a gridiron football culture.)

Anyway, this is the stadium that is used for games by their kids' high school, and a couple of other schools.



It seats about 15,000. The grandstands are pretty bare-bones. Bathrooms and maybe a couple of canteens and that's it. It does have a press box or spotter's booth of some kind. And an electronic scoreboard I am pretty sure.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I may have mentioned this before but friends of ours are involved in high school football with their kids in the northern suburbs of Dallas. (Neither of the parents are Americans, nor are they from countries with a gridiron football culture.)

Anyway, this is the stadium that is used for games by their kids' high school, and a couple of other schools.



It seats about 15,000. The grandstands are pretty bare-bones. Bathrooms and maybe a couple of canteens and that's it. It does have a press box or spotter's booth of some kind. And an electronic scoreboard I am pretty sure.

So basically, just slightly better than McMahon.

[esquire]

My impression of those high school football stadiums along the lines of what Acajack posted is that they're roughly on par with typical Canadian local neighbourhood rinks in terms of fan comfort and amenities. The main difference is that instead of seating 800, they might seat 8,000.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Well - this is "something"

http://www.saugacityrising.ca/

Vision for Mississauga FC for a CPL franchise

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Pay no atttention - they just just a rendering for the proposed North Carolina MLS franchise

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/...lan-renderings

[JHikka]

Yeah, the Sauga City supporters seem pretty determined, but are lacking any sort of coherent ownership group.

[MonctonRad]

I thought I would add another update on the Moncton events centre (I wish they would hurry up and announce the proper name for this facility already). This time, rather than concentrating on the facility itself, I thought I would concentrate on what this construction project is doing for the west end of the downtown core. It's our own microscopic version of the "ice district" around the new arena in Edmonton.

The city in it's wisdom has decided to construct an extensive plaza at the main entrance into the events centre. This project is costing in the vicinity of $4M, featuring an outdoor refrigerated skating rink/oval for public skating in the winter time and will also be used as a stage and performance space in the summertime. The oval will be named in honour of Ian Fowler, a former Moncton city manager who was responsible for developing the sports tourism industry in Moncton, helped to develop the Magnetic Hill Concert Site (attracting performers like the Rolling Stones, U2, AC/DC etc), helped put the financing together for the Moncton Stadium, Was largely responsible for the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championships in Moncton, worked on the Touchdown Atlantic File with the CFL and, if that weren't enough, was intimately involved on bringing NBL basketball to Moncton. Ian truly helped give Moncton it's mojo. He died far too young at 59 years of age.

This an interesting perspective on the plaza in front of the events centre, highlighting the outdoor rink/oval and the stage:



This photo would have been taken from one of the balconies off of the club lounge area of the new events centre and gives a good overview of the plaza, including the Dominion Federal Building and the Crowne Plaza Hotel in the background.

A new Hyatt Place Hotel (and restaurant) has just been announced for across the street from the plaza. The restaurant is apparently to be a higher class chain restaurant, and I'm sort of banking on Baton Rouge, but we'll see. The hotel will face the events centre on the other side of Highfield Street extension. With the new hotel in the background, it's easy to see what a focal point this plaza will be for outdoor civic events in the city in the future!





Another new hotel is being built one block west of the events centre as part of the Junction Urban Village development. This development is a former brownfield site and is envisioned to eventually contain five new buildings containing residential and commercial components as well as the hotel.

The hotel will be a Home 2 Suites by Hilton and will be the second building built in the Junction. This is the only render I have of the hotel, and unfortunately only shows the back end of the hotel facing Vaughan Harvey Boulevard. The front of the hotel actually faces Ivan Rand Drive, which is a new street servicing the Junction development.



The Crowne Plaza Hotel (in the background of the first photo of the plaza above) is also undergoing a $6M renovation in preparation for the opening of the events centre. The Crowne Plaza is owned by the Aquillini Group out of Vancouver, and shortly after the events centre was announced, the Aquillini's purchased all of the properties on the civic block where the Crowne Plaza stands. This can only mean that they wanted to assemble the land in preparation for another major project stimulated by the events centre. What this will entail remains a mystery.

In addition to all the above:

- The federal building complex (in the background of the first photo above) is undergoing extensive renovation.
- The Codiac Transpo terminal in front of the events centre has been expanded with new bus lay-bys on either side of Main Street capable of holding up to 20 busses at a time.
- The Terminal Plaza office complex immediately to the west of the events centre is being renovated. 1234 Main has already been refurbished and contains mainly financial service institutions, including a customer contact centre for Tangerine Bank and a major branch of BDC. 1222 Main (to the left in the photo below) is yet to be renovated but Moncton has just landed a new customer contact centre for TD Bank with about 800 employees, and this may locate here.



I realize all this pales in comparison to the ice district in Edmonton, but for a city Moncton's size, the changes occurring in the immediate vicinity of the new events centre are truly revolutionary for the downtown area.