Provo MSA Development Thread

[SmilingBob]

[quote=Future Mayor;3658151]

Originally Posted by SmilingBob

I'm not following what you are asking or saying here Bob.

I was simply saying that people not living along the Wasatch Front or the Wastach Back might refer to cities in Utah County as "Provo" just as they might refer to cities in SL County as "Salt Lake" and that I didn't think that was a very big deal. But that if people living in those same areas refer to it that way, they are being ignorant.

I wasn't refering at all to "Wasatch One" the forumer.

I think what we are seeing here is that Provo is no longer the dominant city in Utah County that it used to be. When I moved here Provo was dominated by BYU and Orem had Genenva Steel. Over the past 2decades that has shifted to the point that developers don't look at Provo at the only place to build large developments.

I don't know that I like all the sprawl, but I also don't see a push to centralize the large developments. What would the valley look like if the Gehry project and Thanksgiving Point business Park , the Embassy Suites Convention center project in PG and Midtown were being built in one central location in Provo? Say South of Downtown between Center and 500 South?

Any thoughts?

[wrendog]

If those projects all ended up in Provo, it would legitimize Provo as a real city.

[delts145]

Provo has a lot of positives going for it, and the day will come that it's central business district will grow at an even faster pace. But first there must be more of a shift of population size and wealth to the south end of the valley. Right now there's a much larger and more ideal demographic at the northern/southern areas of Ut.and SL. County.

[delts145]

Hastings to expand in Utah

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/272603/18/


hastingsshop.com

An Amarillo, Texas multimedia entertainment superstore chain is looking at eight cities along the Wasatch Front including three in Utah County for its planned expansion.

"People still have a little disposable income here. Utah isn't as hard-hit as some of the other Western states like Arizona and Nevada," he said.

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[SLC Projects]

Hastings. Never heard of them. Are these guys like Smiths or Harmons?

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Hastings. Never heard of them. Are these guys like Smiths or Harmons?

They sell books, music, games, movies, etc.

I thought that they had gone out of business years ago. Guess not.

[ski_steve]

Hastings haha There was one in Layton about 8 or somethin years ago. Yea I thought they died i guess not haha

[delts145]

FrontRunner could help UVU expand

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700241951,00.html

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[SmilingBob]

Recent Population numbers:

http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/tables/SUB-EST2007-04-49.csv
from 2000 to 2007



Alpine city9,5839,2818,9548,695

8,3688,0397,6657,289
Eagle Mountain city17,83217,39112,3328,7607,6286,4384,9712,980
Highland city14,59114,08912,99812,12411,14110,3819,1018,264
Orem city93,07892,69692,23391,19187,62786,34685,65284,416
Provo city117,592116,217115,135111,718108,828108,076110,057105,690
Lehi city36,88533,51630,98927,63324,72322,87421,23719,715
Saratoga Springs city11,57010,7508,9327,3213,3132,3761,6971,253


Alpine has grown a bit, same with Orem and Provo, but it's funny to remember when Eagle Mountain was announced and now has probably over 18,000 people out there, add in Lehi city's growth of almost doubling and Saratoga going from barely over 1000 people in Y2K to now having 10X.

That's over 42,000 more people in Northern Utah County from a bit east of I-15 in Lehi to Cedar Fort. It makes the demographics look good for possible tenants in the retail developments.

[SmilingBob]

duplicate post

[delts145]

When you drive around Eagle Mtn. from the north end and then cross over into Cedar Valley to travel over to the south end of eagle mtn., you realize just how much room there is for that city's expansion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eagle Mtn. become the largest city in Utah Valley within our lifetime. Cedar Valley is a no-brainer as far as broad flat plain, with endless space, relatively cheap land, and none of the natural barriers that block Provo and Orem from growing too much more. They are now settleing in to commercial development for the local residents, which was much needed. It will be an interesting area to watch. Cedar Valley could easily become an area that will propel Utah County population totals past Salt Lake County in the next few decades.

[Future Mayor]

I just shudder at the thought of Cedar Valley growing that much.

[delts145]

^^^
Well Future Mayor, I don't think there is one expert who wouldn't agree that Utah County growth is going nowhere but waaaay up, especially nothern Ut. County. That growth will have to be accomodated somewhere. There's still some decent room at the southern end of the valley in what is now mostly agricultural. Although, that is some of the more farm-active, richest and most ideal agricultural ground in the State. However, Cedar Valley ground is relatively cheap and more strategically located for future growth, "of course, as highway infrastructures move forward as planned." A little added plus is that the views of the Oquirrh's in Cedar Valley are very beautiful, taking on a very large and majestic look.

Lehi continues to develop it's commercial and office inventory at an amazing rate, giving Cedar Valley close and convenient access to it's day to day needs. Cedar Valley will be another catalyst for putting tremendous pressure on what could very likely become the new, very dense, Lehi/Thanksgiving Point/Traverse Ridge/Gehry Center, "the Wasatch version of L.A.'s Century City." I think certain forumers are finally beginning to understand what Brandt Andersen is sitting on. "Land purchased for a song and not overburdened by cumbersome debt, and the world's formost 'Starchitect' as a willing and giddy fan of the plot's probable future potential.

Spanish Fork:
Spanish Fork's new justice center complex is almost finished.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/273260/17/


ASHLEY FRANSCELL/Daily Herald

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[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by delts145

When you drive around Eagle Mtn. from the north end and then cross over into Cedar Valley to travel over to the south end of eagle mtn., you realize just how much room there is for that city's expansion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Eagle Mtn. become the largest city in Utah Valley within our lifetime. Cedar Valley is a no-brainer as far as broad flat plain, with endless space, relatively cheap land, and none of the natural barriers that block Provo and Orem from growing too much more. They are now settleing in to commercial development for the local residents, which was much needed. It will be an interesting area to watch. Cedar Valley could easily become an area that will propel Utah County population totals past Salt Lake County in the next few decades.

Hurry, let's set some urban growth boundaries as fast as possible!!!!! Why destroy more habitats? Why continue to sprawl out? It is inefficient! It is irresponsible, and in my opinion, unethical! We don't have the water to support much more of this type of development, especially when everyone want's there .5 acres of lush, water guzzling, grass! Also, this type of development separates people and destroys community.

[SmilingBob]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Hurry, let's set some urban growth boundaries as fast as possible!!!!! Why destroy more habitats? Why continue to sprawl out? It is inefficient! It is irresponsible, and in my opinion, unethical! We don't have the water to support much more of this type of development, especially when everyone want's there .5 acres of lush, water guzzling, grass! Also, this type of development separates people and destroys community.

So your answer is to build more inner city projects? Massive high rise buildings with thousands of inhabitants?

Also, have you been out to Eagle Mountain? Ever? Most of it is small lots, less than .15 acre lots with a mix of condo's and townhomes. While there are some houses with big lots, that is not the norm for most Eagle Mountain residents.

I don't mind the building that is going on. Utah's population is growing and we have housing needs. I actually think Eagle Mountain has done a reasonable job mixing many housing types in the city.

With that being said, I'm not a big fan of the tremendous growth out there. With limited transportation options for many years, I think a limit should be placed on how fast they can grow, but unfortunately we live in a free country where the federal government can't impose it's will on the people whenever they think they are right. Were we to operate like China we could force entire cities, millions of people to move based on what the government thought was best.

The basis of the problem is educating people to accept options beyond a large yard and far from where they work go to school and shop. In a best case we would all live within walking distance of our jobs, school and shopping. Schools and shopping are relatively close, but jobs change. You can't count on your job staying in the same area of a city or town.

The other problem is the lack of public transportation options. Which is a chicken and the egg thing. Without more riders, UTA can't afford to add routes and without better routes, people don't want to make the switch.

Does anyone know if they have UTA out in Saratoga or Eagle Mountain? But once again buses are limited to roadways and the more roads you build, the less likely people are to ride public transportation.

Do you stop building roads, force people to live in condos and town homes, and then ride public transportation?

If so, then you live in the wrong country.

[delts145]

Very well said SmilingBob, And as you also noted, Eagle Mtn. is actually a sensible mix of lot sizes and common areas. Infact, I would say it's far more sensibly laid out than much of Salt Lake Valley. I don't think that anyone expected Eagle Mtn. to become as popular as it has, while I do understand some of the reasons though. It's very beautiful vistas, and relatively cheap land and close proximity to both Salt Lake and Provo. The much needed highway expansion and commercial development is now taking shape.

I'm not sure of the UTA system for that area at this time. I do hope that BRT becomes very popular along the entire Wasatch. Clean burning, fuel efficient buses with state of the art right-of-way, like what we saw this past week along 3500 south, would be an incredible option for Wasatch Fronters.

[delts145]

Midtown debt sparks lawsuit

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700243494,00.html


A near-complete south wing of the Midtown Village development is seen from the project's unfinished north wing in November 2007. (Stuart Johnson, Deseret News)

OREM — Nothing is growing or expanding at the half-finished Midtown Village development in Orem, except the debts.
In fact, the $100 million-plus project has racked up enough IOUs that more than a dozen companies recently sued Midtown Joint Venture LC in 4th District Court for millions of dollars in unpaid labor.

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[delts145]

Originally Posted by SmilingBob

The other problem is the lack of public transportation options. Which is a chicken and the egg thing. Without more riders, UTA can't afford to add routes and without better routes, people don't want to make the switch.

Does anyone know if they have UTA out in Saratoga or Eagle Mountain? But once again buses are limited to roadways and the more roads you build, the less likely people are to ride public transportation.

Do you stop building roads, force people to live in condos and town homes, and then ride public transportation?

If so, then you live in the wrong country.

[/INDENT]

Cedar Valley wants buses

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/273528/17/


Traffic on Main Street in Lehi is backed up from center street to the interstate during rush hour on Tuesday, July 15, 2008

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[SmilingBob]

Originally Posted by delts145

Cedar Valley wants buses

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/273528/17/


Traffic on Main Street in Lehi is backed up from center street to the interstate during rush hour on Tuesday, July 15, 2008

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My neighbor is probably the person mentioned as the "spokesman who didn't return the messages." (He's at scout camp with his son )-- no really, he is.

I'll have to ask him about why no service to Cedar Valley even if they go for the sales tax increase. Seems like the quasi government/business structure of UTA there should be some way to force them into establishing bus service. Even if it were a run from one or two locations in Cedar Valley to the Orem and SLC.

BTW, getting to SLC isn't nearly as bad as trying to get to I-15 from Saratoga/Eagle Mountain or at least I've been told that by many people out there.

Still don't like any of the transportation options for Cedar Valley, but they are already there and more are likely on the way, so something needs to be done, but I wish it had more mass transit options. All you hear about is more roads.

[SmilingBob]

Originally Posted by delts145

Midtown debt sparks lawsuit

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700243494,00.html


A near-complete south wing of the Midtown Village development is seen from the project's unfinished north wing in November 2007. (Stuart Johnson, Deseret News)

OREM — Nothing is growing or expanding at the half-finished Midtown Village development in Orem, except the debts.
In fact, the $100 million-plus project has racked up enough IOUs that more than a dozen companies recently sued Midtown Joint Venture LC in 4th District Court for millions of dollars in unpaid labor.

.

This development is doomed.

First of all it took years from when this was announced to breaking ground and then it's taken years to actually get to the point of having finished condo's. Then when the finished the condo's very few people could get a mortgage. If you can't sell your current inventory of condo's no bank anymore is going to give you more money. I think funding for this has dried up.

Currently the developers are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have finished units that no one can purchase. Because of the dual nature of this development with retail and offices, it is categorized as a mixed us development which made getting financing difficult even before the mortgage melt down. Even people will large down payments had trouble getting financing and now I would think it almost impossible to get a mortgage on any units.

IMO, where they went wrong was not having a mortgage solution in place for potential buyers.

If the developers can't sell the units that are finished, they can't get more funding to finish the project. Until they find out a way to sell the units, no one is getting any money and the lawsuits and liens will make if all the more difficult. I would image it will be years until this eyesore is finished if at all.

Just what Orem needs is another piece of blight in a city of blights.

Orem's new slogan, "City of Blights"
Unwatered lawns and now this, what is the city turning into?

Any idea on how this will affect the Centerville development?